Winterguard poll

[deftguy]

OY! The basis for movement judging is not dance! I hate this assumption, it's the uniformity of the bodies on the floor at anytime. This is why some guards, especially in independent open, just march about the floor in time together (which is boring) and score higher than guards that dance a lot. Movement judges also judge the body underneath tosses, even if it's standstill and do nothing, it has to look the same.

Now here is the person to talk to. Okay, if looking the uniform is judged, then why are so many guards that lack uniformity under a toss or within a movement scored so high( at least it seems that way). Are variations thereof allowed? One thing I am consistantly seeing is different movements occuring within the same time frame (which is distracting to me) so as to either avoid cleaning uniform movements, or to distract from the fact that uniformity could not be achieved. It doesn't look to these eyes that the show was designed that way because it seems so disjointed from the rest of the show.

My experience says, dance all you want, but if it doesn't look uniform you are screwed. The biggest dance guards in WGI are not the top guards. Oracle is a notable dance guard and has never medaled, as is Northeast Independent and they have never medaled....San Jose Raiders are not huge dancers and they have won and medaled multiple times. More dance historically does not equal higher placement.

Well, I have not seen either Oracle or NI, but I have seen the Raiders because they are close to me. When they medaled those multiple times, they danced, and danced, and danced. As a matter of fact, the shows I have attended in the last 10 years in my area, I have seen the exact opposite of what you are telling me (though you are probably looking at a much larger picture than I am). I have seen guards that blew me away with shows where the equipment book was extremely well excuted, uniformity was there, and they look absolutely stunning on the floor but didn't dance a lot, lose to guards who didn't excute as well, had average uniformity, but mostly danced throughout the show(which they did pretty well). I have seen this occur time and time again, which led me to believe that dance is what the judges are looking for more so than anything else. I am not the only one who observed this, which is why I have developed the opinion that I have.

I think the reason most shows look alike is because it's the whole "tried and true" approach to guard. The judges respond to different things well, and most guards have caught on. This year WGI has taken measures to train judges to specifically be able to pick out different approaches to guard in show design and dance to help judges.

Okay, thank you for pointing this out. So its not the judging system at all, its the lack of creativity from the designers. My frustration lies in the fact that the judging community was/is rewarding this, and this is why I quit teaching several years ago. When you tried to put a show that was different on the floor, the judges just didn't seem to reward it no matter how clean and well executed it was. It seem to me that they wanted us to conform to what is already out there rather than trying to push the evelope in a non dance way. If WGI has implemented the changes you stated, then it came too late to keep some rather talented instructors and designers I know in the activity. Good for them though.

And what criteria is there for a show besides using the triad (equipment, movement, staging)? There isn't really any criteria other than that, except you must spin equipment for a certain amount of time (it varies depending on division). The other guards are what make the criteria and standards for that division.

I always thought that equipment, movement, and staging were main captions with sub captions under that. Criteria may be a poor choice of words, but "what the judges are looking for" would be better but to me that would equal criteria.

I thank you very much for answering a lot of issues I have had with WGI rather than chastising me for my opinion. Since I do not teach anymore, I can only draw an opinion on what I see. Thank you for just addressing my issues rather than lecturing me with a lot of unfounded assumptions. I actually learned something from this thread.

[deftguy]

IMO, you're way off base, but that's your opinion.

1. WGI has tried to eliminate subjective judging, hello, that's why there's criteria.

2. The judging system is based on achievement.

3. There are only two SUB captions on each sheet. Excellence hasn't been reduced at all. If anything, performer achievement is higher than ever.

4. I don't believe you're acutely aware of the sheets, or your posts would have reflected a better understanding.

5. It's your right to not be excited about WGI. But don't bloviate about something that you really don't understand.

I understand very clearly what I see. You cannot eliminate subjective judging, any score awarded is subjectively given based on the judges evaluation of the performance. That evaluation is purely subjective, and can vary from judge to judge. My posts are my opinion, and that is seperate from my understanding of the sheets. So I don't need your evaluation of my understanding or my opinion. cool?

Look, I don't need nor did I ask you for anything. Especially not your lectures of which I find pretty boring. Regardless of whether I understand the details of the scoring system or not, I can see and draw my opinion of what I see. I have been around this activity long enough to do that. If you don't like my opinion of what I see, then go to the next post. You are not obligated to read a dang thing. I didn't critisize you, so return the favor because you do not know me, or what I know. Everyone doesn't have to be a WGI cheerleader, and the ones that are not don't need your grief.

Edited March 1, 2007 by deftguy

[oldtimedrummer]

I understand very clearly what I see. You cannot eliminate subjective judging, any score awarded is subjectively given based on the judges evaluation of the performance. That evaluation is purely subjective, and can vary from judge to judge. My posts are my opinion, and that is seperate from my understanding of the sheets. So I don't need your evaluation of my understanding or my opinion. cool?

Look, I don't need nor did I ask you for anything. Especially not your lectures of which I find pretty boring. Regardless of whether I understand the details of the scoring system or not, I can see and draw my opinion of what I see. I have been around this activity long enough to do that. If you don't like my opinion of what I see, then go to the next post. You are not obligated to read a dang thing. I didn't critisize you, so return the favor because you do not know me, or what I know. Everyone doesn't have to be a WGI cheerleader, and the ones that are not don't need your grief.

Sorry that you feel I'm giving you grief and my posts are boring. I'm just pointing out to you that the criteria used by WGI helps to cut down on a pure subjective judging decision. WGI judges go through the most strenuous training of all the judges in the pageantry arts, and the criteria used has been developed after many years of tweaking the system. Judges are required to follow and base their decisions on the criteria. I'm not criticizing your posts, but rather disagreeing with your uninformed opinion, which I have every right to do.