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Jimisback

G bugles louder that Bb?

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I think the easiest and cheapest way is to have two hornlines go head to head and record them. We can use the hornline for the Blue Devils and their B-flat horns and the hornline for Pioneer which still plays G bugles.

Elmo Blatch

Chuck Naffier did a study with the Colts (late 90s) when Bb were first coming out. His "unoffical" study had Gs louder than Bb. But I think the Bb were symphonic trumpets and not marching trumpets. Chuck, could you give information about the instruments used?

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I would rather fart in a vacuum and call myself Charlie.

Boy, Charlie, you sure know how to have fun! :wub: :P

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Three decibels!? STOP THE PRESSES!!! G bugles must be brought back immediately!

Given that 6 dB equates to doubling the apparent sound power, I'd say 3 dB is noteworthy.

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OK take your tuning meter out to your car and sound the car horn while checking the meter for the pitch. Which note does you car sound?

I better be G or no one will hear it.

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I may rent a db meter and check it myself.

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Chuck Naffier did a study with the Colts (late 90s) when Bb were first coming out. His "unoffical" study had Gs louder than Bb. But I think the Bb were symphonic trumpets and not marching trumpets. Chuck, could you give information about the instruments used?

Hi Steve,

I tried to find the post I put on RAMD back in March of 1999. . . but couldn't find it. . . just didn't have the time to really go digging.

Honestly, it wasn't so much a 'study' as the corps playing that year's opener, Verdi's "Dies Irae" from "Requiem", two times in a row. . . first with an all-G bugle line, and the second time with the sopranos all playing a set of mismatched trumpets.

It was in an indoor setting on the Loras College campus in Dubuque, Iowa at their spring debut concert in March of 1999.

The key was more difficult for the trumpets in the 'band' key, and the fingerings were a lot friendlier in the bugle key. As well, the harmonic series of "G" along with "Bb" didn't really allow for much accurate pitch-matching in that short experiment. I believe we may have had different results if we has asked them to come back with a month of practice under their belts and do the same experiment.

The volume was not significantly different, but again, the circumstances were hardly a controlled environment.

:doh:

I think today's lines could be just as loud as the G lines. . . if they wanted to. It appears to me that there is hesitation among the current brass generation to let it hang out. . . because the judging community seems to accept one standard for brass "sound" regardless of musical idiom or genre. Of course, there is an argument for that now that drum corps use traditional band-keyed instrumentation for brass (traditional in terms of bell-front instruments).

The argument "a trumpet is a trumpet is a trumpet" is a strong one to some folks when trying to defend their own sound. Try telling Buddy Rich that a snare drum is a snare drum is a snare drum. . . or Duke Ellington that Cootie Williams and Cat Anderson should try to more accurately sound like Bud Herseth. . . because, after all, a trumpet is a trumpet is a trumpet.

Anyway, I'm already off-topic, and so far removed from the madness that is today's drum corps brass discussions both in front of and behind the scenes, that it turns into the ramblings of an unemployed brass arranger.

:ph34r::excl:

Bb/G is a dead subject. Drum corps is now Bb/F. G is a relic of our past.

I don't have a preference for one or the other. . . but I do have a preference for melody. . . which is why I'm old.

One more bit of wisdom from Duke Ellington. . . "If it sounds good, it is good."

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Why test a proven acoustic principle? All other factors being equal, the larger horn is louder. A G horn is larger than an identical horn in Bb. Myth Busted. And they didn't even have to blow anything up!

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Hi Steve,

I tried to find the post I put on RAMD back in March of 1999. . . but couldn't find it. . . just didn't have the time to really go digging.

I tried to look for it also. No luck either. I'll dig a bit harder.

Honestly, it wasn't so much a 'study' as the corps playing that year's opener, Verdi's "Dies Irae" from "Requiem", two times in a row. . . first with an all-G bugle line, and the second time with the sopranos all playing a set of mismatched trumpets.

It was in an indoor setting on the Loras College campus in Dubuque, Iowa at their spring debut concert in March of 1999.

The key was more difficult for the trumpets in the 'band' key, and the fingerings were a lot friendlier in the bugle key. As well, the harmonic series of "G" along with "Bb" didn't really allow for much accurate pitch-matching in that short experiment. I believe we may have had different results if we has asked them to come back with a month of practice under their belts and do the same experiment.

The volume was not significantly different, but again, the circumstances were hardly a controlled environment.

:doh:

I think today's lines could be just as loud as the G lines. . . if they wanted to. It appears to me that there is hesitation among the current brass generation to let it hang out. . . because the judging community seems to accept one standard for brass "sound" regardless of musical idiom or genre. Of course, there is an argument for that now that drum corps use traditional band-keyed instrumentation for brass (traditional in terms of bell-front instruments).

The argument "a trumpet is a trumpet is a trumpet" is a strong one to some folks when trying to defend their own sound. Try telling Buddy Rich that a snare drum is a snare drum is a snare drum. . . or Duke Ellington that Cootie Williams and Cat Anderson should try to more accurately sound like Bud Herseth. . . because, after all, a trumpet is a trumpet is a trumpet.

Anyway, I'm already off-topic, and so far removed from the madness that is today's drum corps brass discussions both in front of and behind the scenes, that it turns into the ramblings of an unemployed brass arranger.

:laugh::music:

Bb/G is a dead subject. Drum corps is now Bb/F. G is a relic of our past.

So are dinosaur but people still study them. :laugh:

I don't have a preference for one or the other. . . but I do have a preference for melody. . . which is why I'm old.

One more bit of wisdom from Duke Ellington. . . "If it sounds good, it is good."

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Given that 6 dB equates to doubling the apparent sound power, I'd say 3 dB is noteworthy.

Only a couple issues with that--we don't hear sound power levels, we hear sound pressure levels. A 3 dB change in the sound pressure level amounts to a doubling of the input power--i.e. 2 trumpets will be 3 dB louder than 1 trumpet, 1000 trumpets will be 3 dB louder than 500 trumpets.

However, our ears perceive sound logarithmically. 3 dB difference is barely audible. 10 dB difference is perceived as a doubling in loudness. For anyone to notice anything significant, there would need to be at least a 5 dB difference in the sound pressure levels. You can get that roughly by going from 64 horns to 256 horns.

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