rudidrummer73

I remember a corps coming to Syracuse from the Bronx to march in the state legion prelims. They had 6 drums, 14 horns and a guard of 8. God bless them! As bad as their numbers were, their execution was worse. Their drum score was a 2.6 and that was all on their difficulty score. They were written off the sheets. It happens. How is it a bad job if the corps on the field doesn't cut it. You're a judge, not their therapist. And, again...with all due respect -- a mistake is a mistake. A one tenth deduction. If a line plays a bad fill, they played a bad fill and if you have to think about it you are thinking too much. We loved judges like that.

Good for you with the questions. The way DCI was presented to us at its beginning was as a national organization that would standardize rules, judging and the criteria used to judge. Plus, hold their own national championship. The associated concept of touring was somewhat appealing because corps often would put together a 10 to 14 day swing into the region of the country where the legions were holding their national championship. The northeast benefited from the CYO Nationals and World Open being held in the Boston area. Of course there was a block of top level corps in New England, New Jersey, New York and Ontario, so even regional competition was of the best quality. That’s what we mostly had, regional competition. There were regional circuits and they sometimes had their own rules governing competition and judging. That could create problems and made the standardization promised by DCI appealing. Inspections were not too common, usually only at championship shows on a state or national level. But, one thing that the military organizations did stress and it cost many a corps positions and prize money; the previously mentioned timing and flag presentation. Not only was the show timed, (starting gun signaling the start of judging and final gun to put the pencils down) but you had to be in motion for a certain amount of time and there were certain consideration given for the placement and movement of the American flag. If you go back to other topics in this forum you will find horror stories of penalties for flag violations…unheard of today. You don’t see the American flag on the field of competition anymore. With all due respect to our friend from New Jersey, the tick system wasn’t as subjective as presented. It was a little more cut and dried. An undressed line was an undressed line and that was a tenth. A horn line that didn’t end a note at the same time was a horn line that wasn’t clean and that was a tenth. A drum roll that didn’t start at the same time was a tenth. A judge might not be in position to see or hear a mistake, but that was a creature of fate…as it remains today. Up until the late 60s drills were mostly military lines and angles, left to right from start to finish lines. In the early 70s, rule changes opened up the field. You could start from the upper left corner of the field and enter from the backside. Then you could go all across the backside to enter the field. Drill designers had new tools to use and they used them well. The best practitioners of drill innovation in that era were the Troopers.

Great question and thank you for asking! I don’t say that sarcastically, because writing this answer helps me to realize that the two different scoring systems really are the biggest change in the game. My memory may be faulty, but if it is it is only by the percentages. The breakdown went something like this, execution drums 20 points, execution horns 20 points, execution M & M 30 points, and 10 points each in General Effect drums, horns and M & M. Built into each execution category was a credit category for the degree of difficulty for what you played or drill you marched. For example, in percussion, you had 15 points purely in execution and 5 points in difficulty. So a show in which your drum line made 18 mistakes marked by the judge and you played a pretty tough book and you got a 4.5 in difficulty, your execution drums score would be 17.7. Execution judges were looking for how clean you played; attacks and releases clean, sticking or tounging clean, marching in step, lines straight, proper intervals. GE categories were a build up/credit situation where judges analyzed elements of musicianship; use of dynamics, tonal quality, integration of drill and music, use of guard (there was no dancing, no talking, grunting or counting to keep a cadence, only standard military commands were allowed to be uttered on the field.) I think there is some unfairness inherent in the build up/credit system. I remember a drum judge giving a corps a full 5 in difficulty in the finals of a major show one year. My corps went on the field after they did and got a 4.7. At the judge’s critique after the show, our instructor met with the judge. The judge was quite complimentary toward our line and our instructor didn’t question our score. But, he did ask the judge this; “You never saw my line before tonight and before we came on the field you gave a 5 to someone in difficulty. If we came out and played a harder show than those other guys, what would you do? Can’t change their score or give us a 5.1. You would have screwed us.” Now days, if you establish a show as the standard by which you judge others…wouldn’t it take a bus accident to beat that standard? I also think that today’s build up type of judging results in a more “inbred” type of show where the corps caters more to the judges than the audience. In the early 70s, GE judges started using cassette tapes to record their comments on each show. Before that, it was GE comments written on a form. At first, the recordings were helpful hearing the spot in the show the judge was commenting on. By the end of the first full season of the GE tapes we began to notice a kind of a “I’m smarter than you are/Can you top this” thing happening. I find that to be prevalent today, to the point of compositions being written specifically for a corps show. In the “old days” arrangements were custom designed to fit a sound or style of a corps. But a piece specifically written for a show? In the “old days” the competitive key was how you played and not what you played. Or something like that.

Gotta comment on two things that were said here; the quality of sound generated by pre-DCI corps and the kids who made up most of those corps. Puppet was right on both notes. There were many corps of that era that had a great sound; La Salle Cadets, Blue Rock, Toronto Optimists, Des Plains Vanguard, Kilties, DeLasalle, Troopers, CMCC Warriors. OMG – this might not end! St. Andrew’s, Sac., Anaheim, Auburn… Puppet also hit it dead on regarding corps composition. Thousands of “real kids” and not students marched, engaged in real competition and entertaining crowds. It was not a touring classroom. Given that we were local kids marching in our local corps representing our community and with little formal musical training beyond the lessons we received from our corps instructors – pretty #### impressive. I listen to old corps I competed against and have the perspective of what we faced and did in that era, I’m still impressed. The emotion, sophistication, dynamics, percussion without a pit and friends for almost 50 years. Scott Gordon said it best, “…corps 30 years ago made you cry.” Here it is, July 4th, a day on my schedule that used to mean I was either playing in a parade or marching in competition, or both. That was great...soup or nuts!

You're comparing soup and nuts. If they sound better, that is to be expected. Recording technique and equipment in the 60s was neanderthal, in the 70s and 80s it was rudimentary, in the 90s it was sophisticated analog and now it is digital (HD)...a world of difference. Now, if we're talking what they were playing, I'd pit Boston's 1970 line against what anybody is playing today. And, Boston did it with leg rest snares and they carried everything they played. Soup and nuts, apples and oranges, quarter pounders and chicken nuggets. Had to add this, go the the DC Historical Society videos and look at the 1972 Skyliners DCA show. That was shot (thank God it was) on something just a few notches above kinnescope. Still, it sounds pretty good -- what you can hear above the crowd going crazy. That show still causes me to grow a full beard in 13 minutes, pure testosterone.

I have got to throw in two other corps from north of the boarder; Les Metropolitans from Montreal and the La Salle Cadets from Ottawa. La Salle Cadets or Cadets La Salle, all the same, were a great crowd pleaser from the 70s and were finalists at the World Open.

Since you asked…and now, my “Elvis Story”. After my corps folded, following the ’73 season, I made the choice of a part time job in broadcasting instead of joining the NY Skyliners. A little over a year later, the part time cameraman job developed into full time sportscaster. I was in the newsroom that afternoon. (I still have the original Bulletin sent out by UPI.) Our phone lines lit up. I took one call from a woman in hysterics, she said her friend had called with a “bad joke” – Elvis was dead. She asked if it was true. I told her it was. She went wild. I resisted the temptation to tell her that, as far as we knew, her husband was OK. Elvis died on August 16th, he was scheduled to do a concert in Utica on August 19th. The mayor of Utica, at that time, was a flamboyant personality. Others would describe him using much different words. He was taking credit for the Elvis concert, although Elvis was actually on a tour that was coursing through Central New York. That August, the mayor was involved in one of his many law suits, this one involving a former city employee. After a press conference the week before, the worker’s lawyer joked when asked about the mayor’s claims of credit for the “King’s” appearance. The lawyer said, “Elvis will drop dead before he plays in Utica.” We called the attorney that evening. He wasn’t yet aware of Presley’s passing. He claimed he had nothing to do with it. Back to you.

Great line up. As an old northeast drum corps man, this is right in my wheelhouse. I really liked Cadets La Salle's show that year. They were always a great, high energy crowd pleaser. Much more of a free style corps than the Toronto powers, Del and Opti. Always a great crowd favorite in Canada, NY State and into Mass. They get over looked today. But, then again, so does almost every corps on this list. Thank god you're here!

Would DCI simply be a distributor or would DCI control the rights and usage of these audio and video performances?

That is an incredible line up!

Those weekend Utica v Batavia battles were great! I was part of the 1971 Utica corps that lost the NY A.L. Championship on the field at Rochester by 1.25. That was the closest I ever got to St. Joe’s on the field. Then, there was the protest and, sadly, St. Joe’s did not field a corps again. However, there were several occasions where Utica bested Batavia without benefit of penalty; pre-season standstill in Rochester 1971, is one (the only time I ever beat St. Joe’s). But, it’s on the field where it counted the most and on two occasions in 1964, the Magnificent Yankees beat St. Joe’s; July 12, 1964 in Oneida, NY and July 18, 1964 in Newark, NY to win the first ever NY-Canadian championship. Over the years, the edge sure did go to St. Joe’s…the dominant NYS corps of that period.

There were several very good local drum corps circuits back in “the good old days”. The NY–Penn was one. My corps wasn’t a member, but, marching out of Utica, we were surrounded by NY-Penn corps. If I’m not mistaken, the Utica Royaliers were a NY-Penn corps. Three examples of the local circuits of the 60’s and 70’s were the Hudson-Berkshire, NY-Canadian Association and its successor, the AJrC. Among those who were members of the Hudson-Berkshire circuit; Fairlawn Cadets (NJ), Valiant Crusaders (NY), Pittsfield Monarchs (Ma), Frankfort Starlighters (NY), Magnificent Yankees (NY), PNA Scarlet Raiders (Ma), Continental Cadets (NY), Pittsfield Cavaliers (Ma), Asbury Park Hurricanes (NJ), St. Joseph’s Islanders (NY), Mavericks (NY), Irondequoit Statesmen (NY), Pittsfield Imperials (Ma), Apalachian Grenadiers (NY), Auburn Purple Lancers (NY), Troy Speiglaires (NY), Enfield Sabres (Ct), Pittsfield Blue Angeles (Ma). I believe the Hudson-Berkshire Circuit ended with the 1964 season. The NY-Canadian Association has several top corps on the day; St. Joe’s of Batavia (NY), Magnificent Yankees (NY), Irondequoit Statesmen (NY), Conqueror (Can), Emerald Cadets (NY), York Lions (Can), Apalachian Grenadiers (NY), Cadets La Salle (Can), Shortsville Shamrocks (NY), Lakeview Shoreliners (NY), Alpine Girls (NY), De LaSalle (Can), Geneva Appleknockers (NY), St. John’s Girls (Can), Chessmen (NY), Arnprior Lions (Can), Mello-Dears (NY), Tiersmen (NY), Barons of Steuben (NY), St. Joe’s Brothers (NY). The NY-Can went away after the 1966 season. The AJrC was the last of these regional circuits of note; St. Joe’s of Batavia (NY), Magnificent Yankees (NY), Toronto Optimists (Can), Geneva Appleknockers (NY), Chessmen (NY), Les Metropolitans (Can), Cadets La Salle (Can), Castlemen (NY), Auburn Purple Lancers (NY), De LaSalle (Can). The AJrC faded away after the 1970 season.

Great thread. Opti was always one of my favorites and would be my number one...until we hit the mid-70s. I'm glad that others remembered LaSalle Cadets who, despite their distinct francophone flavor, were based out of Ottawa (and sometimes, Toronto). I strongly recommend clicking the lindap's posted link and listen to one of the most exciting shows of 1969...north or south of the border. But, I had to vote for DEL. A powerhouse in the mid-70s and the best performing Canadian corps ever. The sunburst and then the company front in ONTARIO. They were great! The only one of the Big Three Canadian corps of the 60s and 70s I never beat on the field. Yes, add Preston Scout House to the list...just fdor their innovation. And Geoff, Go Leaf Go!

the contest over who played "Ontario" better between Del and Optimist was great to listen to. Kemo That is so true. While I have always liked Opti's arrangement just a little bit better, to see Del turn arround and do the company front after the drum "roll off" still gives me goosebumps!

When I first saw the title of this thread I immediately thought of my favorite album. I was thrilled when I opened the thread and saw my choice was number one on the list. The 1968 North American Championship had a sound unlike any other drum corps album of the time. I do remember talking with the album's producer many years ago and he said that they miked the stadium a little differently. They did pick up somethings you might not hear from a Fleetwood recording back them. This is the only album on which you can hear a color guard go to "right shoulder arms"; Troopers at the conclusion of "Battle Hymn of the Republic" (Color Pres.) It sounds like the producer compressed the sound on this album, like Phil Spector used to do for his "wall of sound". Casper's drum like was excellent. Optimists "Temptation", out of concert, is a great piece. Del was a few years away from greatness. But, Des Plaines! That fanfare into "Man from LaMancha", great French Horns! Copeland's "Common Man" was magnificent. But, my favorite is "Mercy, Mercy" by The Buckinghams. Great arrangement. Great drum corps. Great album!

Two requests from the hometown of the Executives: LaSalle Cadets - 1969 Nice drum line. This was a crowd pleasing, flashy corps that was part of the Canadian Big Three of the late 60s/early 70s. The true forerunner of Academie Musicale, Les Etoiles and Les Esclipse. Toronto Optimists - 1968 Not a vintage year for the northern Green Machine, but a must...just to hear the wailing horns in "Temptation" out of concert.

Got to add Art Nelson, one of the top guys in North American on Swiss style rudiments. Taught Utica, Troy and others arround the Capotol District. Also judged in NYS AL.

Donny, Got one for you guys to consider, JOHN HENRY, Utica Yankees 1965. One of the best, and often overlooked, concerts of the 60s. It's kick into LOST ON THE MTA can still generate goosebumps 45 years later.

I’ll add two to this topic; Magnificent Yankees and LaSalle Cadets. Yanks won three NYS A.L. championships, on the field, in the 60s and 70s. (Their fourth was awarded on the St. Joe’s overage protest in 1971.) Finalists at A.L. Nationals 1963 & 72, VFW Nationals 1965, CYO Nationals 1966 and World Open 1965 & 1973. Finished 13th at US Open prelims, beating Blue Devils, but just missing the finals. Hot hornline in the 60s. Hot drumline in the 70s. Broke up after ‘73 season due to $$ demand for touring. Cadets were one of the most entertaining corps in the Northeast in the late 60s and early 70s. Finalists at the CYO Nationals and World Open in the 60s and 70s and Canadian National Champions in 1973. This was at a time when Canadian junior corps were highly competitive. They had a great hornline, fronted by soloist Jean LeBlanc, and, as I remember them, a very hot guard. One of the sharpest corps under the lights, Cadets had a unique sound…both brass and percussion. A favorite of every audience they ever played in front of, I can’t remember too many times when spectators felt that Cadets score placement should not been higher. Like Utica, Cadets LaSalle faded into oblivion after the 1973 season.

Just a few of my old favorites: 1970 Boston Crusaders - "Conquest" 1968 Des Plaines Vanguard - "Mercy, Mercy" 1968 Toronto Optimists - "Temptation" 1973 Magnificent Yankees - "Hill Where The Lord Hides" 1970 Blue Rock - "Elephant Walk" 1973 St. Rita's Brassman - "Ride of the Valkyries" 1969 Blessed Sacrament - "El Cid" 1968 Racine Kilties - "Auld Lang Syne" God, I'm old!

I started in 1965 as a charter member of Utica's feeder corps and remember the Startlighters. Dick Robiloto, who had been the Yankees D.M., was working with Utica's horn line. Frank Tucci, who took over the horn line for the Yankees in 1968, was doing the brass in Frankfort.

Absolutely right about the Starlighters. They were a hot corps in the Hudson-Berkshire days.

You have got add the La Salle Cadets. They were listed at various times as being from Toronto and Ottawa, but that had a real francophone feel to them. Soloists Jean LeBlanc doing the bumble bee in their closing always killed the crowds. Real fan favorites and a quality corps. One of the top three from Canada, along with Opti and Del! They were finalists at the World Open in 1973.

I tried to cast my vote for my corps, Magnificent Yankees, but it wouldn’t register. Regarding traveling or “touring” corps from the 60s and 70s, most of the Northeast corps didn’t have to go far to get quality competition. I’M GOING TO START SEVERAL LISTS NOW, APPOLOGIES UPFRONT FOR THE INEVITABLE OMMISSIONS! There were the great “downstate” corps that only had a short drive to go head to head each weekend: Muchachos St. Rita’s/St. Joe’s Patrons Garfield Blessed Sac. St. Andrew’s Bridgemen Blue Rock Kickerbockers OLPH Ridgemen CMCC Warriors In New England, same story…many great corps in their own neighborhood: Boston Crusaders 27th Lancers I.C. Reveries Beverly Cardinals Shoreliners Emerald Cadets Pembroke Imperials In Upstate New York, we had many top corps that did battle locally…less than three hours away from each other. This list did include many Canadian corps. There were several local circuits, Hudson-Berkshire, NY-Canadian and AJrC, that had good corps, great competition, hot rivalries and short trips: St. Joe’s, Batavia Magnificent Yankees Appleknockers Purple Lancers Marauders Squires Toronto Optimists, Ca De LaSalle, Ca La Salle Cadets, Ca As I say, these corps didn’t have to go far to knock heads with top quality corps and then, late in the year, head out to one of the legion national championships, or the World or US Open. It was exciting to follow the regions progressions up to the big showdowns. Watching in New England to see who had the edge, BAC or 27th and was anybody sneaking up. Who was hot in the NY/NJ area…Hawthorne, Sac., St. Rita’s, St. Andrew’s and how close was Blue Rock? Who was strong in the Mid West…Troopers, Cavies, Kilties, Madison or one of the long shots from Des Plaines or Belleville? And suddenly, in the 70s, there were the California corps from Anaheim and Santa Clara. God, that was great! My corps, the Magnificent Yankees, often get overlooked in these flashbacks. We were one of those upstate NY corps that could be dangerous. We won three NYS American Legion state championships in the early 70s, beating both Auburn and Watkins Glen in those defenses. We were finalists at the A.L. National Champs in ’72 and finished third in drums behind Chicago and Bleu Raiders. We were finalists at the World Open in ’73 and missed the finals of the US Open in ’73 by less than half a point…beating the Blue Devils in those prelims. I repeat… God, that was great!

This was brought up early in this topic, but I would urge anyone -- if you have it, to check out the Fleetwood recording of the 1973 World Open for the Magnificent Yankees concert version of "Hill Where The Lord Hides". It was one of the first Mangione tunes played in competition. The brass was done by Mr. Webb of the 27th Lancers. I call him Mr. Webb because I can't remember his first name. It was a hot drum line and a horn line that was coming on in '73, our last year. Fleetwood hasn't gotten to reissuing the '73 Open rercordings, so it might be hard. But, I'd love to hear comments for those who do sample it.