silvertrombone

wait... He's got a good point. Depending on how drums place otherwise. If they are 1.5 lower, PR drops a place. 1.0 lower, no effect. He's got a good point. PR has Paul Rennick. Now they need to reincarnate George Zingali! Not that DCI is calling me for my adjudication services, but personally, I'd prefer the boondocks in the Holiday Inn and reality. I'll take a show with Blue Knights, Boston Crusaders, Crossmen, Academy, Teal, Surf and about 5 OC's. Out of protest against the "G7" if nothing else. And as I pointed out in another thread...shouldn't this now be labeled the "G8"??? Blue Stars being in the 8-spot three years in a row and all. BTW...LOVE the 'Lo' reference. Too funny! Fits my argument as well. My old brass instructor has an interesting tendency to counteract Marie anytime they appear on the judging crew together. I haven't paid enough attention to have noticed...any bias with JJ Pipitone or the other former PR drum caption head-turned percussion judge? Note: Lo ranked PR 6th in GE Music in 1/4's. So much for THAT argument! Curtis Costanza kind of shafted the corps, too...name sounds familiar for similar reasons/history. And to the Blue Stars honk, BS ranked as far ahead of 10th (0.05) in 1/4's in GE Vis as they did behind 7th (0.05)...it was tight. And in finals, SCV and PR essentially tied for 6th...recap shows PR in 6th, I'm assuming due to Rich Kemp's 19.0. SCV Rich Kemp 18.9 / Nola Jones 18.8 SCV, 18.7 PR. 18.85 average each. The judging panels in 1/4's and finals were on the same page...semis disagreed. Interesting...semis included Marie Czapinski. I haven't performed any analysis of other placements (haven't BAC fans complained of this same judge before?? also versus Blue Stars, IIRC??). But my initial, "Well whaddya know?" observation appears to be backed up by two other judging panels. Then again, can anyone discuss how PR's performance was in semis versus 1/4's and finals? A flat performance in semis could explain everything, in which case the Big Dave-O would owe some serious apologies...I just don't see evidence of this theory holding true in the overall numbers/placements. It would appear, once again, that DCI's chosen one on the GE Vis hot seat needs to be permanently booted to Drum Corps Holland. I've still never performed any substantive analysis of such comparisons. However, initial cursory comparisons have always FAILED to indicate we are talking about an unbiased judge here, folks. Period. I may toss in inflamatory rhetorical flourishes to fan the flames of my argument (I promise I bear no ill will toward Cavaliers in my comments on this topic). But this is simply to bring attention to bear on an issue which I have been pointing out quite vociforously for several years now. I would hate for a 1989 or 1993 (or 2006??) to result from such a judge being on the finals panel...ESPECIALLY given Phantom's propensity historically for close seconds. My status as alum is irrelevant. The numbers speak for themselves.

When I came into the activity in 1991 and following, I always thought there was this huge rivalry between Phantom Regiment and Santa Clara Vanguard because of the whole 89 thing and their placements in that era. 89 SCV - 1st PR - 2nd 90 PR - 4th (tied with BD) SCV - 6th (right next door, ignoring PR's tie w/ BD) 91 PR - 3rd SCV 4th 92 PR - 6th in semis / 8th in finals SCV - 8th in semis / 7th in finals 94 We lost to SCV in our first show together...Norfolk or VA Beach area...never looked back PR - 3rd SCV - 5th (Cavies in between) But it turns out...Rockford pretty much never could care less about SCV. Cavaliers is their big rival, go figure. Interesting tidbit...has nothing to do with Revo/Raiders. But that said, the comment about BDB/SCVC and ECJ is spot-on...rivalries are good for anything...sport, drum corps, politics, et al. Looking forward to Forte and Genesis getting in on some intrastate rivalry with Revo in upcoming years! Good-natured, of course. Bragging rights in Texas are a big deal, you know. ;-)

Two things bother me in the world. Politicians and DCI Judging. The two, like the well-worn joke, bear striking similarities to baby diapers, and for much the same reason. In browsing the scores from Semifinals just now I was amused to see that the 6th place Phantom Regiment was ranked 8th by Cavaliers bus mom wannabe and GE Vis 2 Judge Marie Czapinski. Now, in Marie's defense, my old corps doesn't have a really great history of knowing how to generate Visual GE or Visual in general. At least not as measured on the Judge's recaps. 'Spartacus' was the obvious exception, and boy would I love to see if Miss Rosemont judged championships week two years ago! And the other judge in semis this year likewise ranked Phantom in 8th. But I would like just once to see Ms. Czapinski set aside bias and rate Phantom Regiment at or above their placement in her caption. Just once, Marie. Doesn't have to be championship finals with Cavaliers sitting ahead of Rockford. Just some podunk, middle-of-nowhere show where nobody but you, me and the local town gossip will ever know. Cuz' the predictability of this particular judge's scoring is becoming mind-numbingly tedious. Is anybody at DCI paying attention to this issue? I thought it was dealt with a few years back after Ms. Czapinski, chest heaving, said on the theater broadcast, "Cavaliers really do it for me!" Paraphrasing, of course. Remember how the next season Ms. Czapinski was relegated to Open Class and minor, middle-of-nowhere shows 23 clicks south of Podunk? I thought we learned that lesson already, guys.

Wow. Talk about I was kind of thinking about including 2000 through 2010 just for argument's sake. Perhaps each is actually in a different decade, perhaps 2000 "officially" being the close of the 1990's makes Cavies less the corps of the 00's. If you take the 2000 title and punt it back to the 90's, fine. If you take 09/2010's undefeated BD as the cincher for that corps being tops, OK. I guess it boils down to perspective but it sure does look like bias to me. To each his own. I'm more concerned, truth be told, that DCI finally made the major press this week...and look at what they had to say about it. Hmph. Me, I want to say Cavies b/c they were so stinkin' awesome from 04 when I came back into the activity until 06. The three-peat has merit. BD still has never done that. But like I said, BD's run since 2006 has been pretty close to historic. A point in 06 finals and a twentieth of a point in 08 and we're talking about a five-peat topped off by a two-year win streak. I dunno. Didn't vote. But thank you all for debating when the calendar flips over between decades. I would never have guessed discussion would have turned on such a point. Amazing. See you next decade...oh, wait...

Wait for it... ...that's cuz they're from TEXAS!! Congrats to Forte on their first finals and a top-10 finish at that! Congrats also to BDB for their second straight championship as well as cross-state Texas rivals Revolution (4th!) and Genesis (also first year-9th!) for representing the Lone Star State strongly. Enjoy the results of a year of hard work and hold your heads high--you're FINALISTS!!

2000 to 2006 Cavaliers reigned. Phenomenal drill. Mesmerizing visual. Impeccable execution. From 2006 to 2010 the Blue Devils have all but swept the championships. 2006 could have gone to either Cavies, PR or BD with all three within 1 point in Finals. 2007 BD. 2008 2nd by the smallest of margins possible on FINALS NIGHT! And the amazing undefeated back to backs of 2009 and 2010... ...that is, unless the Cavaliers (or perhaps Blooo shoots out the lights??) take the championship on Finals night. But this has been a rather two-sided decade. Neither corps has spent much time outside the top 3. And only a couple of tags by Cadets and one by Phantom kept one of these two out of the winners circle. Not to mention back-to-back championships in 2009 and 2010 by BDB. So the debate of the ages begins: WHO is the corps of the decade? Yeah, technically 2010 begins a NEW decade. I get it. Work with me here.

So, I made a snotty remark in another thread, but it brings up a great point I haven't seen much commentary on yet. "Let 'em go. Good luck paying for the stadium rental for anything grander than, say, J. Birney Crum. Nice view. No roof. One way to get 8 new Finalists next year, huh?" My question is, anyone seeking to rent, say, the Alamodome has to put in a pretty extensive application. This includes information on putting on events. Well, if DCI isn't involved, how do the "G7" even fill out the form? I guess it COULD go through USSBA, technically. Wouldn't THAT be ironic? But USSBA has put on events nationally. Any large NFL/NCAA stadiums? But such venues want to know they're gonna make money, pay the lights, etc. J. Birney Crum ain't exactly the Alamodome. The "G7" could probably draw a crowd either way. But is the point to go back to 1975 in stadiums? I fear that may be the result of all this for the "seven." How exactly would the stadium aspect of this go down? Any discussion on this issue? This obviously tosses out everything else and asks the business-side question of...how is the rental of the facility even going to be secured by 7 groups who have ZERO experience at such things. That's why DCI is around. It seems like pissing in the Post Toasties to toss DCI's baby... ...well, actually, who IS the baby and who IS the bath water? Interesting philosophical question. The chicken and the egg would be a good follow-up.

Correction...if it had been done 20 years ago Bluecoats, Carolina Crown and about 5 other corps who have not would have won championships, we would have expanded the number of corps rather than contracting to <50 and EVERYBODY would be better off. See also the NFL in the EXACT SAME TIME PERIOD. Monopoly = big bucks for the few, worse off for the many. Antitrust is antitrust for a reason. And the NFL is MUCH more profitable annually now than even 20 years ago due to everyone being within 3 years of competing for a championship/division title/playoff spot. Parallel... Imagine if Finals had 6 different corps next year compared with this year compared with last year... Last year's champion placed 8th this year... And next year's champion wasn't even in finals this year... Now THAT would be exciting! And excitement generates revenues. Don't ask where from. Paducah, Kentucky. Casper, Wyoming. Who cares 'where'? Excitement generates INTEREST...which begets REVENUES. Mirrors produce championship after championship after championship. (snotty retort) And isn't it interesting who has all the money in the legacy system, who has all the mirrors, who has all the ego and who has all the trophies? See also the Cowboys, 49ers, Steelers, Redskins and Giants of old. Unfortunately, DCI finally made the press. Unfortunate because it was not due to excitment or awesomeness...but ego and B.S. Let 'em go. Good luck paying for the stadium rental for anything grander than, say, J. Birney Crum. Nice view. No roof. One way to get 8 new Finalists next year, huh?

What he said.

Well, the stipulation was that anyone who attained "Top 8" three years would be included in the "G7." So... 1.) "Congratulations" are in order to Blue Stars...assuming they don't biff in Finals. 8 three years in a row. 2.) Where does the corps stand as far as the "G7" proposal is concerned? 3.) Welcome to the discussion, Blue Stars...nobody thought this would taint the corps' name. Interesting development. 4.) Was Blue Stars' results the last two years the reason for the "8th place rule"? 5.) Congratulations to Phantom Regiment for preserving their status...assuming they don't biff Saturday...sitting in 6th place with two corps close behind...sounds an awful lot like history repeating itself.

Thank you, Bob--I hadn't thought about that point. Now, that being said, this accounting-sort would design them in such a way as to stack the mirrors in the existing truck. Perhaps in some way above everything else? There was plenty of "air" space in the PR trailer way back when. Pretty simple to add hangers (bike racks come to mind) for the mirrors frames. Great point, but I'm guessing they probably didn't rent a Uhaul just for the mirrors. Would be interesting to know. As for the props of all the other corps...this year AND last...don't remember there being that many with any one corps. Even the huge throne BAC is toting around looked like it probably collapsed down pretty well. And there was only one...not 127 of 'em. Or 150 rifles, for example. When it all boils down to it, I'm most amazed at the musical quotations of last year's championship show in this year's show. So...we couldn't come up with something more creative than to stroke our own egos and quote ourselves from last year? I mean...I would have been more impressed with quoting previous championship shows or even the better-known shows the organization has fielded...not like there are a bunch to choose from. Last year's? Cute ego trip. Probably why they are 2 points up on the field...judges like that snot. My biased opinion...probably not even worth $0.02.

Thank you for your analysis. You make many great points, as did several other posters, and I recognize you all for this. However, I'd prefer to not be lumped into the "BD haters" club. I never beat BD, nor Cadets. Star was gone by the time I marched Phantom so technically I never beat them either. Everyone else I was blessed to be in a corps that defeated them according to one judging panel or another on any given night...for whatever it's worth. And I have always been in utter amazement of 94 BD. Not so much for the show design as for the sheer talent level on all levels. Disgustingly good. Further, being a PR alum I am supposed to be a Cavalier hater, period, end of discussion. Or some such. Never have been. Enjoyed thoroughly beating them in 94 the last two shows, but based totally on that season, not the attitudes of vets who had a different perspective. Took a break from 98 to 04. When I came back, Rosemont was bar none at the top of the game. NOBODY has ever been at that level of perfection as far as I'm concerned. 04 to 06 are about as close as I have seen drum corps come to the divine. But it was due to DESIGN. I sat mesmerized at their drill design. You simply could not take in everything in a couple of viewings. I envy anyone who toured with them in competing corps and got to simply watch them over and over and over night after night. Wow. I recognize that BD has always been the top of the heap other than when Star was around and when Cavies were other-worldly (even though BD won titles during Cavies' reign). So I would like to think that I am possessing of something of an objective attitude here. I am shocked when anyone beats BD in brass, for example. Period. THAT is an accomplishment in my mind. But where I recognize that Concord is the place to go if you want to perform with the best, I also question if perhaps the design team doesn't design to feature that talent...but to impress the judges, and thus to win. Is it a competitive activity? Obviously. Is it OK to design in such an activity specifically to win? Sure. Float your boat, to each his own...assuming that is the case. But like I said...I sat mesmerized at Cavies 04-06. I thought my guys were robbed in 06 even though I recognized the greatness that 'Machine' represented. I probably won't ever even look twice at BD 09/10. Nothing terribly innovative. Props. Musical quotes from the previous year's show. Congrats, enjoy the rings and all that. Next. It takes more than props, ego and the biggest budget to impress me. And again, ironic who is stating they need more money for their organization, isn't it? Bankrupt all the Open Class corps so we can have the championships, the electronics and the glory. Don't take it out of context, but give me 1980. Maybe even 1976. Go Bluecoats...wreck it just for the sake of it.

You have to admit two things: 1.) Those mirrors have to be REALLY expensive. I'll betcha you could feed an Open Class corps for a week for the price of those 475 mirrors. I guess somebody gets to keep those after the season to view their "G7"-sized ego in, right? I would hate to think their purpose is over and done with in less than one month. 2.) The "G7" argument cannot possibly be helped by the cost of those props. "Oh, oh...we don't have BINGO any more...we need more MONEY...we need a bigger share of the PIE!!" Then THOSE show up on the field. Epic fail. Epic. Three guard uniforms probably don't help the argument much either, me thinks.

I'd like to say, way to go, Cadets! From the bottom of my heart. It wasn't until halfway through your performance Thursday night that I even realized that the colorguard was in full uniform...shakos, too! VERY cool. VERY classic! In addition, your show was one of the most enjoyable of the evening...perhaps the most. THIS is the kind of repertoire and concept that we were all screaming for a couple of years ago. THIS was electrifying in a good way, and the return to tradition exhibited the last two years has been wonderful. Thank you, all. I haven't been on DCP much this year, so I trust that the community's overall reception has been much of the same. If not, give Hop a hug and a kiss right here to inspire his crew to keep giving us more of this.

Someone explain again...do dice/chairs/tables/mirrors/stabbing the drum major with a lance = visual / GE? Cuz someone sure seems to have learned that lesson pretty well. Help me understand, again, what ='s visual and GE in layman's terms. If it's props...say so. I get that, already.

Wait until Texas tries that with gas taxes! Texas is a donor State...has been for many years. Meaning, for every dollar we pay in gas taxes, the State only sees 85-cents in Federal spending on roads. This compared with States like Minnesota (they of the collapsing bridge!) who typically receive in excess of $2 in funding for every dollar paid in gas taxes! I just suggest that the State Comptroller needs to begin collecting Federal gas taxes and allocating them themselves. Cuz I can point to MANY quotes from the Constitutional Convention where those old, dead, white guys said things like, "We do not want taxation across State lines!" Same point, sort of. Hope I don't hijack the thread. Ignore me!

To some of the posters I must say thank you very much to for your congrats and words of support for our corps, members, staff, etc. And to the offer of the beer, a double thanky! Mod's, for the benefit of those who understand neither law nor libel, and in order to protect the ignorant from themselves, please shut down this thread. And again, congratulations to the members, staff, volunteers, supporters, parents and fans of Forte D&BC...I look forward to seeing you on the field of competition tonight in Dallas!

Yeah, I know that our guys aren't World Class (just yet!) as far as DCI classifications go. But I put this here because ANY corps deserves the honors due their first DCI performance! Bravo, Forte--good job, and push on! Special congratulations are in order for the members, staff, parents, supporters, volunteers and everyone else associated with the Forte Drum and Bugle Corps. Forte debuted in their FIRST EVER DCI show on Monday night in Wichita, Kansas with a score of 65.45 in Open Class competition! I remember my first drum corps show in Clearwater, Florida back in 1992 with the SkyRyders. It was GREAT! I remember that experience more than my first show with Phantom Regiment in 1994, so I know the Forte members will take the memory of the last 24 hours with them for the rest of their lives! It is a magical experience to hear the crowd cheer your simply walking...er, MARCHING onto the field of competition! And it is one that the members of our young, though PROUD, organization can now draw on going forward. Good job, and kudos to each and every member and their parents and fundraising supporters who helped them get to this point. And kudos to the entire staff including Corps Director Chris Green, who has worked TIRELESSLY to get the organization to this point! Good job to one and all, and we look forward to seeing you guys this week in Texas!

What was the term that was floating around a couple of years back? Competitive Inertia? That's not right, I know--someone help. Sooo...Crown placed 2nd last year. Blooo was 7th? Memory fades...correct if wrong. Crown is obviously in a great position to bring home trophy #1. But I would say that Blooo is also obviously in a nice position, given that they were 0.6 back of Crown tonight. They've already tagged Phantom, Cavies and Cadets in June, a feat that must be due to quality of design and talent of members. So, compare and contrast the "Competitive Inertia" or "Competitive Momentum" thing, whatever we termed it previously. And discuss the advantages or lack thereof as far as last year's placements of these two corps, etc. Feel free to comment on their shows this year, but keep it nice.

So did NOBODY else catch the crotch-in-the-face move during the BD show? Stood her up with his HEEL, man! Nevermind. Well, I will admit, I may have underestimated the impact of... ...this! But This...I Believe...not many folks seemed agitated that there was no Cadets the previous Countdown. Toss 92 PR on the screen for all I care. I'll betcha more would have been in attendance. Just a guess. I mean...what would no PR on tour do to attendance, hmm?? I'd still like to have seen some Star, too!

Observation: Absence of Phantom Regiment from the broadcast. Observation: Absence of phans in the stands at the broadcast. Correlation? I think maybe so. Lesson learned?? Do a broadcast/countdown with no restrictions. ALL shows eligible, no limit on one per corps. Really give the people what they want, ya know? 12 best shows of all time...yeah, maybe only 4 corps would be included, but everyone would get a fair chance. And I'm sure the economy didn't have anything to do with attendance either.

Wow--did you see the guy in BD's guard jump crotch-first into the gal's face? Rode her back to the ground then stood her up with the back of his heel...pretty...amazing!! That alone wins in my book...probably had some great one-liner's during the summer, too. Loves me sum SkyRyders! Interesting seeing Cadets twice this time and none last year...Phantom twice last year and narry a mention this time! Does anyone else miss seeing some Star of Indiana on these things?? Beltshazzar would be nice! Come on...Indianapolis?!? Loved Blooo's horns...sounds like a great corps already! Boston in Florida...Phantom better get used to the 2nd tier. Forgot that Crown won brass...wow! Like stealing the strong man's wife right under his nose. How many corps have won high brass all-time, BTW? 87 Cadets does it for me every...single...time. That said, 09 SCV is the only corps to ever make me cry twice...keep it coming, Fiedler! Cavies...I miss the mid-decade stuff...LOVED 007 music during the pre-show music...PLEASE return to that level of design...AMAZING!! How about an "anything goes, vote for the top 12 of all-time" Countdown...if one corps gets 12 shows, then so be it...give us the 12 best shows of all time! As voted on by...US!! Viewed in the Northpark AMC in Dallas...attendance was WAY down...did having NO PHANTOM have anything to do with that?!? Bad, bad, bad idea!! I'm not against there being no PR in this one, even as alum, but from a "butts in the seats," marketing standpoint, this stands out along with Jackson 93 as a bad, bad idea in DCI history. What were they thinking??

DCI has officially notified Forte D&BC that the corps has been approved to participate in the OC tour for 2010. A HUGE ATTABOY is well-deserved by Forte Director Chris Green who recruited members of the OYAA Board, as well as a full staff for the corps' innaugural year. Many of you know the history of Forte and the only reason the corps is in existence is the hard work of our Director. So pop the bubbly--well, those of you old enough to partake, that is! Even if that just means a nice, cold 6-pack of Dublin Dr. Pepper. Forte's last pre-tour rehearsals are May 22nd in D/FW and Brunswick, Ohio. See the corps' web site for details at www.fortecorps.org. MARCH FORTE!!

Wait... Wait... Oh, dang it--Chris beat me to it!! There were some delays at DCI, who had requested that Forte wait to begin publicizing our acceptance to tour this summer. But DCI emailed us to say that the delays were ongoing and that we could go public with our good news. I'd like to say a big ATTABOY to Chris Green, Director of Forte D&BC, from the Board of Overture Youth Advocacy through the Arts. I think the other members of the Board will agree with me that we've got a fantastic Director, Tour Director, staff and volunteers (not to mention the Board members, who, I have to say, are a pretty good bunch as well!). All have been recruited by Chris to head our organization from its inception, and we look forward to putting a quality product on the field this year. Thank you's as well to Dave and Sue at DCI, the OC evaluation committee, and I'm sure a whole bunch of other people in the Drum Corps universe who have played roles small and large in assisting Forte and OYAA in becoming a reality! MARCH FORTE!!

Crown is winning me over...just waiting on a little bit of Amazing Grace and I'm cream and purple all over! But Blue was NOT going to be denied last year.