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Couchmen < Futon Regiment < Sofa Clara Vanguard.

Cadets 2000. I've only ever seen it on video, and that show really screams at me that the staging was incredibly important. Honorable mention: Phantom 89 Blue Devils 99 SCV 99 Cavies 00

I think that's been agreed upon already in this thread, but sure, why not.

Like I said in another post, I won't spearhead anything, but will definitely volunteer and will happily work with my local media contacts to help promote if a team is ever formed. My provided stats were simply meant to make a case that it's not ridiculous to assume a show would have a fan base, but you're right, hosting a smaller show at first would be a very viable way to measure that fan base's existence. Re: replacing Atlanta, that's a major stretch, I agree. I've made a case in other discussions that DCI would benefit from an alternating tour schedule (odd years v. even years), where one year the corps goes left, the other the corps goes right, San Antonio is always the midpoint, Indy is always the end point, and Atlanta in this case alternates as an early-season/late-season show depending on the year. I always assumed Phoenix or possibly LA would be the alternative to that Atlanta show at the opposite end of San Antonio every year, but this conversation does suggest Las Vegas has viability if that idea ever picked up interest. And that's not correct about 1962. The last time a drum corps contest was hosted in Las Vegas was 2009 (not a DCI-sanctioned event.) It was midweek and poorly advertised, but still felt well attended (not a true indicator of fan base, I know). Check out this cool video of Bluecoats and Blue Devils doing a double arc encore performance. That was a really, really fun night.

I assume this a moot question, but does anyone have a list of theaters that showed Big Loud and Live in at least two markets, plus Vegas, y-o-y for a multi-year time period? (spreadsheet form would be great). Anecdotally, it's jumped a lot in Vegas, from 1 theater 10 years ago to nearly a dozen this past season. I'm guessing Fathom bases the decision to add more theaters on demand, so you could use that demand as an indicator for fan base. I could plot that data to determine demand and compare it to demand growth in other cities, just to give some context of a Vegas show's viability. We are also one of the few school districts nationwide where every school has a music program. Qualitatively, with 50+ high schools, that's a pretty large opportunity market. I'd also argue that Las Vegas is designed by nature to attract visitors from out of state, so the local fan base wouldn't be the only audience to consider. Around a quarter of our visitors come from Southern California, and about 1 in 10 of our visitors come from Arizona (p. 51), so you could assume a portion of that audience would come from those areas (though no way to tell what effect existing shows in those areas would have). Do we know the average out-of-town percentage at existing shows, specifically the SoCal shows and all of the regionals? Also I have no evidence for entertainment activities, but at least on the meetings and conventions side it's documented that annual shows see an 8-percent increase in attendance (on average) when they rotate into Las Vegas (item 3). So there's argument to make that a regularly occurring show that moved into Las Vegas, rather than creating a new show, would see a rise in attendance as well.

To the point of Fantasy, I still feel like that's the realm we're talking about here since this isn't actually on anyone's agenda yet (a show in Vegas, especially one at the new Raiders stadium I mean). However, I'd like to formally volunteer as a member of that committee if/when it gets off the ground. I will not spearhead any venture for myriad personal reasons, but if another individual/group does and needs support in any capacity, please sign me up!

To be completely transparent, the 09 show was not actually a DCI show. But that's nitpicky and doesn't detract from the value of your statement at all. I'm sure if we try hard enough, we can come up with plausible dangers about every show site! (possible topic idea for a new thread?)

Well, I literally housed with other corps at the same housing site, and we've made it work. Heck, I shared a housing site with the Colts the day after they beat us, which was extremely awkward but we made it work. Also housed with Oregon Crusaders, Blue Stars, SCV, Blue Devils (super temporary, we shared showers, I think theirs were broken or something). My point being that sharing a housing/rehearsal site isn't uncommon, or at least it wasn't a decade ago. I think I only referenced one Soccer Stadium, and it was specifically as a cool "what if" for a single corps. But let's take Cashman Center or the Las Vegas Convention Center as an example. Both of these have massive facilities with space that can be easily partitioned, and even without partitions there's multiple convention halls that are quite literally almost a mile away from each other. For context, I walk around the Las Vegas Convention Center several times a week. It takes an hour to complete a loop. These are very, very large facilities.

Re: convention sites, which are what have low lease occupancy (nationwide) during the summer, it's primarily due to conventions in general taking major breaks during the summer and around Christmas as well. In both seasons, conventions simply find it better to not have to compete for their audiences with family vacation destinations. This is industry-wide among conventions and convention centers. The few centers that do continue to host events generally do so with consumer-focused events (a la the aforementioned GenCon), which are generally smaller than business-focused events, hence they don't host the events among the largest convention centers (Chicago, Orlando, Las Vegas). Edit: Also to the point of "fewer number of people visiting Vegas....in the middle of the summer", as Ghost pointed out in his second link, July had the highest visitor volume in 2016 of all 12 months (in a year that saw more visitors to Las Vegas than any other year in history).

Convention space and several of those venues were what I was alluding to as well. Cost is an interesting factor to consider but can't be accurately researched - all of those facilities charge on a generally negotiable rate. That said, that rate is largely based on demand, and summer is the slowest time of year for meetings and conventions nationwide, which presents a lot of opportunities. Being several non-profit organizations will definitely help too. I should note, I'd previously only considered publicly-funded space like the Las Vegas Convention Center and Cashman. Those facilities could easily offer field space for a dozen corps or more, three fields each. They're just that big. But after jjefeory mentioned the private space in hotels, if the space is available anyways, it's incredibly reasonable to assume the space would be offered at a tremendously discounted rate in exchange for event sponsorship and/or room block guarantees, neither of which is out of the realm of possibilities for this discussion. UNLV and CSN do also have rehearsal space available of that size. Also for the sake of discussion, this facility in Mesquite opened up a few months ago. About an hour's drive from Vegas. I sent it as an FYI to a friend of mine who runs a summer band camp, but holy wow would it make a cool housing site for a corps. And there's several football fields available in Mesquite, some with gorgeous views.

Alright, I've yet to find a source that can show a daytime-only avg. temperature for any city during a specific month, and in fact can't locate ambient temperature or heat index rankings on NOAA, Accuweather, or any local weather or tv station websites. Help is appreciated. I'd rather have the right data to continue this discussion. Here's a few links. Not sure if the search parameters will hold, they look good on my end but that might be cookie data holding it. Are ambient/heat index described by different terms? Las Vegas, July: Accuweather, Weather.com Houston, July: Accuweather, Weather.com San Antonio, July: Accuweather, Weather.com Open discussion please. If anyone can provide a source for comparative heat index or ambient temp, especially if we can pinpoint daytime hours, it would be appreciated.

I feel confident I've never met an individual who knows the avg. heat index or avg. ambient temperature in a given month in their hometown (save maybe meteorologists). I, at least do not, and I've lived in Las Vegas 32 years. I know very little about weather data, which is why all my facts on Las Vegas weather thus far have been anecdotal or cited to a source. Yes, if I go outside in July in the afternoon (say 3pm) and it's not raining (Summer's our monsoon season) it's definitely going to be over 100. I don't know humidity, I assume low because desert, and I don't know how that factors into heat index or ambient. I can also say that any time I've been in Texas in July, it's definitely more humid than Las Vegas but feels about the same in terms of heat. Can you please provide a data source you trust that has a comparative figure for Texas and Las Vegas?

Well I'm glad I put both on there. Like I said, I don't do much with weather data and definitely don't know it as inside out as I do other datatypes. So can we use the HHI's I've included, or is there a better data source for this? I'm truly curious to know. It's as relevant to my side of the argument as yours to determine if these major cities in Texas have a similar heat index to Las Vegas (which, based on the right column, appears accurate to say).

I'm not sure where Wolfgang pulled his data. I put the attached chart together using data from AreaVibes.com (I don't do a ton with weather data, would love another source if it's available). I didn't look at August because Texas nor Nevada would make sense for August with Finals in Indy. City Month Avg. Heat Index High Heat Index Houston, TX July 92 116.6 Dallas, TX July 88.4 120.3 San Antonio, TX July 89.8 121.7 Austin, TX July 87.5 119.3 Las Vegas, NV July 89.6 123.3 None of these have a July average of >100, and all have a high of >115. So from this, is Vegas now more viable, or do we cancel Texas moving forward? I'm assuming you'll stick to your guns and go with the latter, but not totally sure.

This discussion was a discussion of a show in Las Vegas, never moving Finals. But for the sake of discussion, the U.S. has four time zones, and Indianapolis is in the Eastern most, two states away from the Atlantic. Hardly central. In the discussion of proximity as well higher access to air seats, Texas is probably the best bet for Finals to get the highest attendance possible (yes, I get it, it's hot there too). But to answer your question, if the discussion were to ever truly come up for the benefits of a Las Vegas Finals (it never will, I get it, still not advocating for it, but I'll always defend the idea with stats), DCI could offer a more affordable experience in a more accessible location to a wider audience compared to Indianapolis. Las Vegas has the capacity to offer lodging within five miles of the stadium to every fan at every desired price range without concern of reaching max occupancy, nor would the lodging prices increase dramatically as a result of demand. Fun Fact: GenCon, the annual board game convention, takes place at Indianapolis Convention Center (adjacent to LOS) within one week of DCI Finals annually. It's attended by 60k individuals. As a result of these two events, hotel occupancy in the downtown Indianapolis area usually reaches 100% during the two weeks in August, with some show attendees for both events unable to find a hotel within five miles of the venue at all, and prices increase high enough as a result of demand that the entire state of Indiana's average hotel rate in August increases significantly compared to any other time the rest of the year. To recap, prices go up in one downtown area for two weeks so much that it has a significant effect on the statewide average for the entire month. Meanwhile Las Vegas also has direct flights at a cheaper rate than the national average from virtually every major airport in the U.S, and the average hotel room rate on the Las Vegas Strip in August is around $120/night, and around half that in the Downtown area. So DCI still charges the same amount per ticket, but the costs that aren't associated with them decrease dramatically. That's a viable strategy to increase attendance without decreasing bottom line (aside from any y-o-y benefits currently received by LOS, I get it, this isn't 1 to 1). That it would, greatly. Still not what I'm advocating, as I've said several times throughout this discussion. I've left evidence of that below, just in case it wasn't known.

Now this is my kind of informed discussion! I appreciate your insights BRASSO.

Not really. I simply wanted to have a rational discussion on the topic, and instead received myriad attacks on my home, none of which are backed by data or the simplest of rationale. I didn't start the thread and I've only presented information that is both mathematically and anecdotally sound. According to several individuals in this thread, I don't know my own home, I've actually risked my life hundreds of times by participating in any outdoor musical or athletic activities, and arguments based on data or historical evidence are not relevant if they don't support a negative bias. Cool thing about stats and facts, they're true whether you believe them or not.

Nope, we have more convention space than anywhere on the planet. Millions of square feet of that is public, and convention occupancy is lower in the summer meaning it's not difficult to find vacancy for drum corps. I've literally rehearsed drum corps in churches and YMCAs, busing in from housing sites where we showered. Indoor, air conditioned convention space as a viable option for this along the same lines.

Third time in this thread I've mentioned this, we have indoor air conditioned facilities with space available for more than a dozen corps with high vacancy rates in the summer. Not sure why that keeps getting ignored. Also annually we have at least one corps come through Las Vegas and hosts a whole practice. It's usually well attended by local music community. Phantom's been out here a few times, and Blue Knights were out here last year. They practice outside, they drink water, and I've yet to hear about a single negative impact from heat. Let's recap: Indoor facilities are available Show site is indoor and air conditioned Corps practice annually in Las Vegas outdoors with no issues Risk rate established in one example as less than half of half of a percent. I'm not saying DCI will or won't have a show out here, probably never will, but the facts presented demonstrate all arguments against such a show are based on fear bias rather than plausible argument.

Acceptable, no, but it's still irrational to discredit a preventative measure that in a single NFL season had a 99.95% success rate. Even antibacterial soap doesn't claim that high of a success rate. This is a perfect example of fears based on statistically improbable, isolated situations driving future decision making.

So you're saying it might be easier to prevent these things from happening in an indoor, air conditioned show venue?

I'm not trying to downplay the tragedy of that situation at all, it's terrible, but isn't it important to look at ratios in this situation? In 2001, when Stringer passed away, nearly 1,700 individuals were playing professional football for the NFL. That means that 0.05% of the NFL's players died from heatstroke that season. If that was the only case since 2001 (which I'm assuming it is based purely on the fact that that was the story posted, I did not take the time to look for anything more recent), that means this was one case out of more than 27,000 individual player seasons from 2001 through 2017, or 0.004% of all cases. It's really, really important to look at likelihood of an outcome before making decisions based on worst-case scenario. Drum corps buses suffer significantly higher rates of damage than these figures, yet we don't ban buses. Can something bad happen from over exposure to heat? Absolutely. But clearly there's preventable measures that can be taken that have high success rates, otherwise all of those numbers would be much much higher.

But, but, but.....there was a tree.

Agreed on this, minus possibly SCV (I like their style in '15 and '16 a lot). BK just needs that special sauce combo of show design and talent to crack the top 4. As long as they don't lose momentum, that can definitely happen in the next year or two. Cavies I think you'll see an upswing again, but it might be another season before they get their stride. Seems like they've gone through a lot of staff/leadership changes over the past few years, but the team they have in place now feels strong.

Based on Stu's insights, I'm concerned the Raiders are going to die.