BDCorno

Uhhh... That wasn't my point. Instead of going three valve G, they went three valve Bb....and got rid of french horns in the process.

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I still don't understand the switch to a *Bb* multi key horn from a G horn, outside of band-ifying drum corps and making it easy on the manufacturers. Or perhaps it was going to make it cheaper to obtain instruments. It wouldn't have been difficult to add a third valve to a G horn. Honestly, I don't think a Bb horn sounds good at all outdoors. The G key is a better sounding fundamental for me. The decay, and loss of resulting bass response, make Bb instruments sound sorta tinny to me. Could you score your Bb instruments in keys closer to what you'd have found with a G horn? Sure, but the intrinsic "home key" of the instrument makes a profound difference for me musically - in an outdoor setting. Once drum corps took the "G" out of bugle, the groups have just become brass marching bands (no offense to bands, but what is really the difference anymore?). I guess that's what the whole genesis of the horn change was - merging/"legitimizing"/mainstreaming drum corps. It sure has had a positive effect on the growth of the activity now, hasn't it??? [no sarcasm here - lol]

Not 100% sure on the mouthpiece, but regular flugels take a special mouthpiece. I'm sure you could get away with a trumpet mouthpiece, but the sound wouldn't be the same. A 6A4A might sound *a bit bright*. LOL. It's likely a matter of what type of music your group plays. If you're hardcore jazz and use the middle horns as the sax section, then you should keep them with that choir most of the time. The nice thing is that you can move them from choir to choir as necessary, depending on the nature of the music at a particular moment. The french horn [shameless plug] can fit the same kind of situation. They could be part of the middle horn voice one phrase, and then be the icing on the bass choir for the next.

Heck, even though I still live in SoCal, I'd fly out to attend that event... :P

I'll leave the potential double entendres alone. Yeah, the instrument can make a huge impact, as can practicing every day. But hey, we didn't need to practice. B)

I agree with you in principle, but disagree with your logic on this. If a french hornist has to practice twice as hard to achieve half as much, then they're probably doing something wrong. I'm not trying to be "flip" here, and am curious how you would have arrived at such a conclusion. Brass playing is brass playing, and this isn't even a concert french horn we're speaking of. No need to worry about transpositions, stopping, hand position, covering up the strings, etc. - so why would (or should) it be so difficult? All I can think of that might possibly be hard to achieve would be a greater degree of volume, but that's why you have the technique program for your line. I'm sure some of the marching models available might be limiting, but I loved our 2-valve G King horns from back in the late 70s. I think it was a well-made and designed instrument that could serve horn lines well even today.

I'll take issue with you on this. There is a very distinct and characteristic sound to a french horn as compared to a baritone. I believe the assumption you make is that the french horn was scored in a fairly low part of its range in Wayne's arrangements. This couldn't be further from the truth (well, at least in MY era). During the late 70s - early 80s, the french horn parts were split, and at times the lead french horns doubled up the mellophone line (well, not always by design -heh, heh, heh).... The real issue are the partials that are present in the sound. The baritone is pitched an octave lower than the french horn, so the harmonic series in the sound is populated with a whole different set of notes, if they're in unison with a french horn. The french horn is also a conical instrument - the standing wave of a conical instrument will include less high partials and impart a mellower sound. Unless the lead baritones (cylindrical) are playing on a euphonium (conical), the character of the sound will be different as well - not to mention the partials are still different. Hey, if you don't find the sound to be different enough to you, that's OK. Everyone has their own taste. I'm not a fan of altos - that voice is indistinguishable from...well, the imagery is not something I'd like to discuss publicly. <G> Seriously, I just find the alto horns to be somewhat vanilla in character. Present, yes; but not anything that lends character, depth and color to a horn line. Even mellophones have a characteristic sound that piques interest and offers a different quality to the sound. It's the old "different strokes" principle. If you prefer that kind of sound as an arranger, that's fine. I'd venture to say that most arrangers prefer more, than less tools in their "tool belt" when creating music. The french horn is the ONLY instrument that can really offer a true tenor voice to a horn choir. Of all the excuses for the near-complete disappearance of the french horn from drum corps, I've never heard it stated that one "wouldn't" like to use the voice - it always revolves around "lack of quality players", "cost", and a host of other not-good-enough reasons. Here's hoping that the french horn makes a comeback!

At the risk of plagiarism, "build it, and they will come".... :P

Blue Devisl 1980, Clovis HS stadium. Now mind you, I "saw" this from on the field Chris Nalls might remember this show - we almost fell apart in the gate turns at the end of the show. We BARELY made it to the end together. Not exactly the kind of "exciting" you're asking about, but I never had a "thrill" like that! The exact reasons for this phenomenon have long been a mystery....

I think you're on to something - you just don't get a proportional amount of credit for playing those type of charts. As a result, it's better to "water" the show; limiting the demand and exposure to assure you'll be competitive. The unfortunate outcrop of this approach is that it cripples the activity and what it can achieve. I attended finals this year, and while the performance level was generally good, the shows themselves were somewhat unremarkable. It's almost as if designers feel obligated to conform to some unseen and unwritten criteria. Nice video of Suncoast. Loved that horn line.

Well, at least close... LOL.

Hey, Lee. Who's the rifle in the middle? I recognize you and Brenda Nelson, of course... Freelancer shorts???

Wow. I remember that day like it was yesterday. Tom was a good guy, and he put me up at his place for a while when I was first in. God rest his soul.

Yikes - not the best publicity photo. A couple of IGA ticks there - if anyone remembers those...

Well, we did push the "Easy Button" now, didn't we?

How did you get a picture of the food coordinator for the 1982 VK? Lemme know.

Heh heh heh. With apologies to Texas, "don't mess with middle horns". :P

What this whole dust-up teaches us is that there is no one approach, explanation or viewpoint that "does it" for everyone. Each of us learns and relates to information in different ways, and while one person may not benefit from what Wayne teaches, others may find a path to improved performance. From my years of experience and development as a player, there are basically two camps: one that teaches you to "how to make music", and another that teaches you "to allow music to happen". The rare player that can grasp the "allow" approach doesn't need to get under the hood and poke around, but the majority of aspiring musicians can benefit from explanations such as Wayne offers, no matter how useless anyone else finds it. I really don't see the value in impugning Wayne's methodology on this matter - if the information is not useful to you, discard it and go on. None of us are the final arbiter of "the right way" to play. Results are what's important, not a textbook embouchure, particular technique or opinion.

Hey, Lee. Long time... Oh, yeah - I can't forget that one... There were two tosses, one over the sops and the second over the middle horns. I recall the rifles were backing up at high leg lift, half steps. The horns came forward at full stride. I think I was the only one who ever got nailed at a show (Stillwater, first show I think). I don't know if you remember a rehearsal in Hatboro about two days prior to finals. I think it was Mel who yelled "cut" just prior to the toss over the sops. I think about four or five of them stopped, most of the rifles went ahead with the toss (it was too late to pull back) and there were bodies strewn all over the place. Luckily nobody was seriously injured. I think one of the gals on 2nd sop got it the worst. I don't think I'll ever forget that toss, or that rehearsal...

I don't recall which year it was (I think it was 1976) and we were staying at a HS in Huntington, WV. The corps was spread out across the gym floor. When the lights were turned out, roaches (and BIG roaches) came out of nowhere and were almost instantly all over the gym. Some were using flashlights to find them, and tried to smash them with their flipflops. There were way too many, and the only way to get them to go away was to keep the lights on. So we did. Not exactly a memory I had in the front of my mind, but after reading your post it all came flooding back. LOL.

B)--> QUOTE(Jay B @ Oct 10 2007, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Beautifully said Mr. Tuttle. Mellophones and those little baritones don't quit support the middle like a french horn, although I didn't always feel this way. I'm not certain, but I believe that the french horn bugle started life in the fifties. And, like most new voices that were invented in the 50s/60s era (french, contra. mello), it was usually overemphasized by arrangers. Listen to many recordings from that period and you will quickly tire of ripping french horns, as well as enough intonation bombs to win a war. Non-formally trained players instructed to blast away sometimes produced some pretty ugly sound . I really didn't warm to its use until the late seventies beginning with 79 BD. Phantom also used it well. Here I think you began to have the convergence of better players, better instruction, and improved horn design. I don't think anyone ever orchestrated for the mellophone and french better than those 79 thru 82 Blue Devils. I can't speak to those who have brought up the mouth piece issue. I never had an issue with it, but then again I wasn't a music major trying out for a symphony chair. If in fact trumpet players are a "dime a dozen", then why not use trumpet mouth pieces on french horns. The sound will be altered, but maybe in a good way. Just a thought. If the french horn "bugle" cannot be played well while using todays marching styles, then I think that speaks more to the hegemony of visual design more than anything else. Are we sacrificing an important brass voice or, for that matter, execution in all areas in order to run around the field at 120 mph? Anyway, I hope the french horn makes a comeback. It is indeed missed. Thanks for the comments. I have to agree with you that the 79-82 middle horn arrangements for BD were outstanding (we did have 8 flugels and four of them doubled on mello). Wayne did a great job of creating a middle voice that emulated the sax ensemble of a jazz band. This is where the unique BD sound came from. When I first joined in 1976, Jim Ott was doing most of the arranging, so as Wayne transitioned into that role it took a couple of years to refine his sound. He did benefit from some very good french hornists (not to mention outstanding flugel players as well) in that particular time span - but he might have been the premier drum corps arranger for french horn ever. I guess when the outstanding players dried up, it was too easy to phase them out. It's a shame that french hornists are essentially neglected by the corps activity as a whole. Trumpet, trombone, euphonium and tuba players all "have a place" and benefit from the brass programs offered by drum corps. French hornists are required to go over to mellophone or "alto" instruments. To me this does a big disservice to the horn community. It also belies the concept of partnership with scholastic band programs that DCI and its affiliates are supposedly trying to promote. What band director wouldn't love to see a french horn player come back every September a far better player, knowing that his local drum corps was elevating that part of his/her program??? Not going to happen these days, I'm sad to say. School band programs can't ignore french horns - directors are stuck trying to deal with what they've been dealt. Corps, on the other hand, simply sweep french horns under the rug because they simply don't want to work to develop that part of the line. I came to corps a mediocre player, and left a solid, strong player - not a star by any means (that's what we had Chris for), but I can't discount the impact that corps had on my playing. I'm fairly disappointed that corps these days, perhaps in the rush to WIN, don't take the time to TEACH and DEVELOP french horn players. Aren't they there to educate? With all due respect to the top brass staffs in the country, it's just too easy to cherry-pick the best players and modify the instrumentation than to develop a french horn voice. Why go through the hassle of developing a french horn section when you can peel off a couple of trumpet players and put an alto horn in their hands? I don't think current drill design is a reason they're gone. Honestly, I don't think the 07 BD horn book was any more difficult than the 79-80 books. The combination of current movement demands, combined with the overall demand of the horn book, probably equals and slightly exceeds that which we dealt with. Remember, shows are about 12% shorter than they were in the 70s and 80s. Top to bottom talent, consistency and performance level is certainly greater. The biggest difference with modern shows resides with the percussion sections (movement demands, more intricate drill) and color guard (spatial requirements, physical demands). Horns have really gotten off easy, when all is considered. Well, I'm getting off the soapbox. My sincere apologies for the voluminous post. I'll STFU now. :ramd:

I think any ban on nudity involving senior corps is a good idea, if you know what I mean... :sshh:

I don't think there will ever be a louder marching french horn than the old piston/rotor "long" model horns. Gawwd. Love 'em...

Why soitenly... Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.