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Point well received. My intent isn't to separate anyone. I believe anyone with an instrument is a musician. To varying levels of expertise, of course. Personally, I think a conductor of any type is a crutch as well. Dutting is just another form for "musicians"-that-beat-things (let's not run with that statement) to find a sense of common tempo. I've personally seen instances in the field medium where there really was no other way to clean an attack, especially when blinded to a visual cue or when the field spread makes the acoustics not work even if the visual indicator is there, or when a mark time isn't happening to get pulse from the feet. This is after trying everything and seeing some shows fail miserably before we succumbed to the evils of the dut. There are varying degrees of musicianship out there on the field, remember, and coupled with the demands placed on said musicians, the dut is just communicating an internal pulse so that a group can relay their musical message better. I agree with the "but we never needed it back then" concept, however I'd ask that anyone with that attitude keep an open mind and try to visualize yourself in the situations that today's designs place on the performer. It is a whole different ballgame, with many more responsibilities placed on the group as a whole than "back in the day". Todays' performers make many very complicated and difficult things look easy to us. Of course, I've never known anything other than the "dut". We used it since the late 70's when I started, and I know that pales in comparison to when many of you all started. I think we used it more effectively back then, though, since the intent was to not let the audience know it was being used. On another note I also know of another grammy winner within the DCI ranks who's drum lines used the dut, lol. But I digress. I believe the dut to be no different than any other means taken to keep in time an ensemble of 150 people spread over 100 yards. The trick is, and it should be that, to make it truly effective, it shouldn't be heard by anyone other than the performers themselves. That is my humble non-grammy award winning opinion. </threadjack> PS- I edit because I can't spell and never notice until after I hit "reply".

Heck, on paper, I would too. No worries. The man is one of the greats. Last I checked I didn't see any awards for marching percussion in his credentials, however. I'm pretty comfortable with my accomplishments and the positive effect I've had on others and the activity, regardless of your opinion. Carry on!

I've been here since '02. I just never posted because I get too opinionated and along those years was affiliated with groups I didn't want to embarrass with my comments. A few here who know who I am can vouch that I've been around since RAMD was in it's heyday. I just never logged in and forgot my original screen name so I resigned up recently. I don't put it all in my sig because I think that is stupid and just gives people e-ballz. If you want to list all your accomplishments in a signature to brag, that's fine. I choose not to. While I did post that I've achieved a lot, it was only in response to someone implying I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't feel the need to state that in a signature. Finally, read ALL of my posts in this thread. I don't agree with dutting all the time. I only say that there are times it is needed, and in those times, I do not think it should be heard from the stands.

There is a huge difference in attack characteristics and how it can be masked between the two. On a drum it is also a visual attack. You don't "see" someone's tongue prepping and applying the actual attack on a horn. That adds a visual dimension that adds another level of difficulty to hitting a drum. In addition, just because of the inherent physical properties, an attack on a drum can't be masked. Especially with the tuning/materials and staging of modern marching drums. Mylar heads of old with the low tuning better masked poor attacks. Today's drums and tuning make it so that even the most minute of timing errors makes the sound thick, since there is a rapid decay after the attack, unlike a hornline, where the majority of notes played have at least a small amount of time to the actual note before a release occurs. In addition, there are so many variations of an attack on a horn, whereas on a drum, you either hit it right on time or you don't, and that difference is recognizable both visually and audibly. On a drum, you can't "fwah" your way in to an attack and rely on others around you to hit the "dah" attack to cover those who miss it. This gives horn players a false sense of accuracy and "holier than those drummers" because it is so much harder to pick out a subpar attack from a hornline as a whole since it is so much easier to sneak in. A hornline attack, even at its most precise, doesn't have the minimal margin of error that a drum attack does. As mentioned, individuals can "sneak" in to a horn attack of an entire line; you can't do that on a drum. And you're assuming that you "horn players" subdivide well. Have the hornline bopp their notes playing them all very staccato and see how that works for you. If I put a stick in to the dominant hand of an entire hornline and asked them to hit a precise attack... and play just that one note together (regardless of the technique or quality of sound), I'd bet a life's savings of about $5 that they couldn't do it. And I'm not biased, as I was a horn player long before I moved to the dark side.

Then you don't know me. I haven't won a grammy, but I'm degreed in music, and have medaled/won every major marching activity in existence since the late 70's, on both brass and percussion instruments, indoor and outdoor, band and corps, as a player and instructor/arranger. Can you say the same for yourself? Your sig says no.

Yes, it is. If there is any spread on the field at all, and everyone on the field attacks right with the visual cue of the major, the attack will be dirty to the audience. Many times you'll hear (and again, I don't like hearing them from the stands, either) duts that intentionally DON'T line up with the major, because that is the timing needed for the attack to work with the ensemble proper. In days of old when the whole battery line was always together and most often in the same configuration, and when even sub-sections of the battery always stayed together (no "pods" like used often today), and when the battery was never spread beyond the 40's or behind back hashes, then I can understand why a dut wasn't needed. I marched those days. It wasn't as hard. I've taught in modern times, and it isn't the same. I will end my post stating once again that I agree that duts should never be heard by the audience. But until you've marched/taught modern era, big movement and oddly-staged battery, you can't place judgment on what tool is used to create cohesive and on time attacks and sense of tempo. But, as an audience member, you should have the right to not HEAR it, for many reasons. I can't understand how this slips through many staffs and why some would even want the audience to hear it. Maybe they just get so used to it that they don't even hear it anymore. I'd think a staff wouldn't want the crowd thinking that the line needs it, even though the real-world situation is that they probably do for many reasons the crowd couldn't begin to understand unles they were out on the field. I'd much prefer to hear something played well and in time and wonder how the heck they pulled it off. So, I'm all for no audible duts. EDIT: Oh, and I'm also not "for" duts just for the sake of dutting. If it isn't needed, I don't prefer to use them. So, I'm not a "dut all the time" guy, myself, but I do see the situational need for it and can't pass judgement on when another line uses it unless I've marched a day in their bucks. On the Dr. Beat thing... I don't understand. It's been used since late 70's to early 80's. One can still groove and play ahead or behind the beat when a constant tempo is given. I've rarely ever seen a field ensemble play consistently well when they don't use the Dr. It's all about consistency. It doesn't create robots. It is just another tool. And one that works.

Dut should not be heard from stands. Dut should still be used as needed. If you haven't marched, arranged, or taught a modern-day battery percussion section, then you really shouldn't speak much of it. The variables that play in to a clean attack are much different than what either a horn player might understand, or even a marching percussionist from another era could comprehend. Which is exactly why there is a strong opinion in favor of the dut from most drummers on the DCI forum about this very topic. Most, with the exception of one to two people over there, agree that the dut should not be heard unless there is some strange effect that is intended. So, on this we can mostly all agree. But the majority of people who say the dut shouldn't even be used at all, even unheard by the audience, are either from another era when the demands weren't the same, or are horn players, where a bad attack is much easier masked.

And in the past, the band programs were bigger, and there were fewer entertainment options for them to explore other than drum corps. In addition, there was a time when kids focused on band. Now, they want to do everything extracurricular. And we mention how it's tougher financially to take a family to a show these days. But yet I can buy a guitar at Toys R Us and build a recording studio in my bedroom very cheaply with the capacity to outperform the pro's studio 20 years ago. We're in a different world now. So many more options, so much more technology, and fewer people in the education programs to spread out to those options.

I'll accept that challenge. I'll win. You are finding things to support your opinion instead of looking at the big picture. Forest for the trees and such. Just because you don't find some of the things entertaining doesn't mean everyone else doesn't also. Of course there is the argument that there are so many more like you. But that is because you associate with people like yourself. My argument is that corps will never be mainstream or interesting to the general public in today's world, regardless of what is being done on the field, and regardless of the implement/instrument used.

Our passion for the activity clouds the reality of it being something the general public just wouldn't care about ("General Public"- meaning those who don't know someone involved already or someone involved in any marching activity). To the general public (again, under the same definition as before), it is halftime and a chance to go pee and get a hot dog. We all try and justify it by giving the "I know someone", or "I brought somone to a show", but those people to me don't cover the demographic "general public", nor would most of those people catch the fever that only more cowbell could cure. Full contact drum corps might work. Or pre-programmed dots to hit that explode if the performer doesn't hit his/her spot. That might sell. Otherwise, you're selling something no one wants to buy.

Much MUCH larger, in fact. One assumes they don't because they aren't part of it and think it's "beneath" drum corps, but if you research in to it, especially in to African American show bands, you'll find the opposite holds true. Georgia Dome practically sells out (yes, the WHOLE thing, not just one side) every year for corporate sponsored show band pseudo-competition. To this date we haven't had a "The Mountain Dew Drum Corps World Championships". We assume too much because it is our passion, however the reality is that this activity can't really expand outside of its niche audience. The majority of non-corps people think its marching band, and even if proven otherwise, they don't really care. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Wow. Was there for the 80's and today and I saw it much different than your "one moment in time" view there. You are skewed because of your beliefs and bias to find proof to support yourself, even if it is apples to oranges. That is my opinion. And how can you even determine what level of involvement someone has from a picture, and what does it matter? I respect your right to your opinion. I can't even begin to communicate how differently I see it, though. If it's that bad, then leave the activity or start your own nostalgic circuit. There are plenty of us who love all eras and can't wait to see/hear what's next in its evolution. If that weren't the case, then DCI would go belly up, they'd find a new person to head it all up, and we'd be begging for all the nostalgia fans to please come back. Last I checked, none of that is happening.

Has my vote for any election you'd run in. Kudos.

I wouldn't call either year "difficult" until the very last weekend of the season. Otherwise, I agree to an extent on Billy, but more from his 27 days than from the podium of Steel City. Great guy.

I like all eras in moderation, but just for sheer level of design, musicality and difficulty from the entire corps proper, I would rather be right where we are, looking forward in the manner the activity seems to be. When doing direct comparison to today, the further back I go, the quicker I get bored, unless it is very specific "favorite moments" of shows from those days. This viewpoint is looking at the activity as a whole, and the corps as a whole, because my top five shows ever certainly include a few from the 80's/90's. But those are specific and not representative of the entire activity at the time. When looking top to bottom of the top 12 today's shows hold my interest much more from a whole corps perspective than the top 12 of any 80's-90's era. Just as a yardstick, I'm 43 and marched the 80's. I'm in awe of what the kids these days do, and the level at which they do it.