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Point well received. My intent isn't to separate anyone. I believe anyone with an instrument is a musician. To varying levels of expertise, of course. Personally, I think a conductor of any type is a crutch as well. Dutting is just another form for "musicians"-that-beat-things (let's not run with that statement) to find a sense of common tempo. I've personally seen instances in the field medium where there really was no other way to clean an attack, especially when blinded to a visual cue or when the field spread makes the acoustics not work even if the visual indicator is there, or when a mark time isn't happening to get pulse from the feet. This is after trying everything and seeing some shows fail miserably before we succumbed to the evils of the dut. There are varying degrees of musicianship out there on the field, remember, and coupled with the demands placed on said musicians, the dut is just communicating an internal pulse so that a group can relay their musical message better. I agree with the "but we never needed it back then" concept, however I'd ask that anyone with that attitude keep an open mind and try to visualize yourself in the situations that today's designs place on the performer. It is a whole different ballgame, with many more responsibilities placed on the group as a whole than "back in the day". Todays' performers make many very complicated and difficult things look easy to us. Of course, I've never known anything other than the "dut". We used it since the late 70's when I started, and I know that pales in comparison to when many of you all started. I think we used it more effectively back then, though, since the intent was to not let the audience know it was being used. On another note I also know of another grammy winner within the DCI ranks who's drum lines used the dut, lol. But I digress. I believe the dut to be no different than any other means taken to keep in time an ensemble of 150 people spread over 100 yards. The trick is, and it should be that, to make it truly effective, it shouldn't be heard by anyone other than the performers themselves. That is my humble non-grammy award winning opinion. </threadjack> PS- I edit because I can't spell and never notice until after I hit "reply".

Heck, on paper, I would too. No worries. The man is one of the greats. Last I checked I didn't see any awards for marching percussion in his credentials, however. I'm pretty comfortable with my accomplishments and the positive effect I've had on others and the activity, regardless of your opinion. Carry on!

I've been here since '02. I just never posted because I get too opinionated and along those years was affiliated with groups I didn't want to embarrass with my comments. A few here who know who I am can vouch that I've been around since RAMD was in it's heyday. I just never logged in and forgot my original screen name so I resigned up recently. I don't put it all in my sig because I think that is stupid and just gives people e-ballz. If you want to list all your accomplishments in a signature to brag, that's fine. I choose not to. While I did post that I've achieved a lot, it was only in response to someone implying I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't feel the need to state that in a signature. Finally, read ALL of my posts in this thread. I don't agree with dutting all the time. I only say that there are times it is needed, and in those times, I do not think it should be heard from the stands.

There is a huge difference in attack characteristics and how it can be masked between the two. On a drum it is also a visual attack. You don't "see" someone's tongue prepping and applying the actual attack on a horn. That adds a visual dimension that adds another level of difficulty to hitting a drum. In addition, just because of the inherent physical properties, an attack on a drum can't be masked. Especially with the tuning/materials and staging of modern marching drums. Mylar heads of old with the low tuning better masked poor attacks. Today's drums and tuning make it so that even the most minute of timing errors makes the sound thick, since there is a rapid decay after the attack, unlike a hornline, where the majority of notes played have at least a small amount of time to the actual note before a release occurs. In addition, there are so many variations of an attack on a horn, whereas on a drum, you either hit it right on time or you don't, and that difference is recognizable both visually and audibly. On a drum, you can't "fwah" your way in to an attack and rely on others around you to hit the "dah" attack to cover those who miss it. This gives horn players a false sense of accuracy and "holier than those drummers" because it is so much harder to pick out a subpar attack from a hornline as a whole since it is so much easier to sneak in. A hornline attack, even at its most precise, doesn't have the minimal margin of error that a drum attack does. As mentioned, individuals can "sneak" in to a horn attack of an entire line; you can't do that on a drum. And you're assuming that you "horn players" subdivide well. Have the hornline bopp their notes playing them all very staccato and see how that works for you. If I put a stick in to the dominant hand of an entire hornline and asked them to hit a precise attack... and play just that one note together (regardless of the technique or quality of sound), I'd bet a life's savings of about $5 that they couldn't do it. And I'm not biased, as I was a horn player long before I moved to the dark side.

Then you don't know me. I haven't won a grammy, but I'm degreed in music, and have medaled/won every major marching activity in existence since the late 70's, on both brass and percussion instruments, indoor and outdoor, band and corps, as a player and instructor/arranger. Can you say the same for yourself? Your sig says no.

Yes, it is. If there is any spread on the field at all, and everyone on the field attacks right with the visual cue of the major, the attack will be dirty to the audience. Many times you'll hear (and again, I don't like hearing them from the stands, either) duts that intentionally DON'T line up with the major, because that is the timing needed for the attack to work with the ensemble proper. In days of old when the whole battery line was always together and most often in the same configuration, and when even sub-sections of the battery always stayed together (no "pods" like used often today), and when the battery was never spread beyond the 40's or behind back hashes, then I can understand why a dut wasn't needed. I marched those days. It wasn't as hard. I've taught in modern times, and it isn't the same. I will end my post stating once again that I agree that duts should never be heard by the audience. But until you've marched/taught modern era, big movement and oddly-staged battery, you can't place judgment on what tool is used to create cohesive and on time attacks and sense of tempo. But, as an audience member, you should have the right to not HEAR it, for many reasons. I can't understand how this slips through many staffs and why some would even want the audience to hear it. Maybe they just get so used to it that they don't even hear it anymore. I'd think a staff wouldn't want the crowd thinking that the line needs it, even though the real-world situation is that they probably do for many reasons the crowd couldn't begin to understand unles they were out on the field. I'd much prefer to hear something played well and in time and wonder how the heck they pulled it off. So, I'm all for no audible duts. EDIT: Oh, and I'm also not "for" duts just for the sake of dutting. If it isn't needed, I don't prefer to use them. So, I'm not a "dut all the time" guy, myself, but I do see the situational need for it and can't pass judgement on when another line uses it unless I've marched a day in their bucks. On the Dr. Beat thing... I don't understand. It's been used since late 70's to early 80's. One can still groove and play ahead or behind the beat when a constant tempo is given. I've rarely ever seen a field ensemble play consistently well when they don't use the Dr. It's all about consistency. It doesn't create robots. It is just another tool. And one that works.

Dut should not be heard from stands. Dut should still be used as needed. If you haven't marched, arranged, or taught a modern-day battery percussion section, then you really shouldn't speak much of it. The variables that play in to a clean attack are much different than what either a horn player might understand, or even a marching percussionist from another era could comprehend. Which is exactly why there is a strong opinion in favor of the dut from most drummers on the DCI forum about this very topic. Most, with the exception of one to two people over there, agree that the dut should not be heard unless there is some strange effect that is intended. So, on this we can mostly all agree. But the majority of people who say the dut shouldn't even be used at all, even unheard by the audience, are either from another era when the demands weren't the same, or are horn players, where a bad attack is much easier masked.

And in the past, the band programs were bigger, and there were fewer entertainment options for them to explore other than drum corps. In addition, there was a time when kids focused on band. Now, they want to do everything extracurricular. And we mention how it's tougher financially to take a family to a show these days. But yet I can buy a guitar at Toys R Us and build a recording studio in my bedroom very cheaply with the capacity to outperform the pro's studio 20 years ago. We're in a different world now. So many more options, so much more technology, and fewer people in the education programs to spread out to those options.

I'll accept that challenge. I'll win. You are finding things to support your opinion instead of looking at the big picture. Forest for the trees and such. Just because you don't find some of the things entertaining doesn't mean everyone else doesn't also. Of course there is the argument that there are so many more like you. But that is because you associate with people like yourself. My argument is that corps will never be mainstream or interesting to the general public in today's world, regardless of what is being done on the field, and regardless of the implement/instrument used.

Our passion for the activity clouds the reality of it being something the general public just wouldn't care about ("General Public"- meaning those who don't know someone involved already or someone involved in any marching activity). To the general public (again, under the same definition as before), it is halftime and a chance to go pee and get a hot dog. We all try and justify it by giving the "I know someone", or "I brought somone to a show", but those people to me don't cover the demographic "general public", nor would most of those people catch the fever that only more cowbell could cure. Full contact drum corps might work. Or pre-programmed dots to hit that explode if the performer doesn't hit his/her spot. That might sell. Otherwise, you're selling something no one wants to buy.

Much MUCH larger, in fact. One assumes they don't because they aren't part of it and think it's "beneath" drum corps, but if you research in to it, especially in to African American show bands, you'll find the opposite holds true. Georgia Dome practically sells out (yes, the WHOLE thing, not just one side) every year for corporate sponsored show band pseudo-competition. To this date we haven't had a "The Mountain Dew Drum Corps World Championships". We assume too much because it is our passion, however the reality is that this activity can't really expand outside of its niche audience. The majority of non-corps people think its marching band, and even if proven otherwise, they don't really care. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Wow. Was there for the 80's and today and I saw it much different than your "one moment in time" view there. You are skewed because of your beliefs and bias to find proof to support yourself, even if it is apples to oranges. That is my opinion. And how can you even determine what level of involvement someone has from a picture, and what does it matter? I respect your right to your opinion. I can't even begin to communicate how differently I see it, though. If it's that bad, then leave the activity or start your own nostalgic circuit. There are plenty of us who love all eras and can't wait to see/hear what's next in its evolution. If that weren't the case, then DCI would go belly up, they'd find a new person to head it all up, and we'd be begging for all the nostalgia fans to please come back. Last I checked, none of that is happening.

Has my vote for any election you'd run in. Kudos.

I wouldn't call either year "difficult" until the very last weekend of the season. Otherwise, I agree to an extent on Billy, but more from his 27 days than from the podium of Steel City. Great guy.

I like all eras in moderation, but just for sheer level of design, musicality and difficulty from the entire corps proper, I would rather be right where we are, looking forward in the manner the activity seems to be. When doing direct comparison to today, the further back I go, the quicker I get bored, unless it is very specific "favorite moments" of shows from those days. This viewpoint is looking at the activity as a whole, and the corps as a whole, because my top five shows ever certainly include a few from the 80's/90's. But those are specific and not representative of the entire activity at the time. When looking top to bottom of the top 12 today's shows hold my interest much more from a whole corps perspective than the top 12 of any 80's-90's era. Just as a yardstick, I'm 43 and marched the 80's. I'm in awe of what the kids these days do, and the level at which they do it.

Me too on all accounts!

Geographically in a straight line, Atlanta itself is closer to Chicago than to Miami.

I agree on the party being moved outside. Last year I got stuck in an area where I couldn't hear a thing. I had to see Star on the web because I couldn't actually hear any parts less than ff live. I also am ready with my flamesuit on, but I'd almost love to see mini-corps get the lights down to nothing but stage lights, and perhaps even have the opportunity to work lighting effects in to their show. I AM NOT SAYING USE ANY ELECTRONIC INSTRUMENT OR ELECTRONIC SOUND ENHANCEMENT! What I am saying is that it would be cool to add the lighting ellement to the mini corps show. Just my opinion. EDIT: I know all the "cons" already, not the least of which being $$$. Regardless, I just think it would be awesome.

Bucs always my favorite, too, even when marching 'shore, lol. I've caught a lot of show day rehearsals over the last few years (I actually like rehearsals and lot warm ups better than shows, many times), and even up through this year seeing all of the top 5 at some point, I have not seen a DCA corps rehearse as focused, with 100% buy-in from the members, as Bucs. They get things done in such an organized manner, and utilize their time better than any other DCA corps, IMHO. It's like watching a strong DCI corps rehearse. That isn't knocking down any other corps, so don't start the "we all work hard" posts... but this is just how I've seen it. They get more done, faster and with more focus, than any DCA corps I've seen in a long time. Some other corps are close and try to approach it kind of "DCI-like", but due to whatever reason, they don't have complete 100% total member buy-in to the philosophies and protocol of their corps' practice regimen, or their staff doesn't have their combined ish together to make it work as a package on the days I've seen them. Bucs do, every single time I've watched them rehearse.

'88 hands down for me.

Are you a percussionist? Do you know the man? Because you're not even close here. Wonder how many players will follow him, That will happen. Do you think it was PR that drew the talent? It was being able to play in his line that drew the talent, is my guess. The man writes tasty beats, and he draws players.

EDIT: On second thought, it was selfish and stupid of me to air a whole page of dirty laundry on a topic that should be full of positivity. Let's just keep it at the fact that you lost me at the first sentence, because you've got it all backwards. My guess is that is because you got the information from the very person who was at the root of the whole collapse. The last year was when they had more local inexperienced kids; the first three was when they had DCI players, many local and yes, brought up through the ranks from high school to be DCI players. But they also drew players from up to 10 hours away. Remember, that original staff marched and taught DCI at the highest level; they certainly WERE a draw. You don't get players to geographically drive right past three to four other competitive groups in your classification without that staff draw. If you talk to the staffs of all years, including the names you mention above, and the players of the glory years of the first three, you'll learn the real story. Don't forget that the staffs of all years were actually friendly with each other, and one of those names above was taught in DCI by one of the original staff, and another of the original staff was taught by one of the names you mention. The only "division of philosphy", and the reason the first staff left (along with the players- going along with my point that younger players follow staff), and then the second staff took their check and went home as well.... was entirely with the management itself. It was nothing about the staff, who to this day meet and laugh about it all. That group was strong world class with DCI players their first three years, almost medaling in one. Most of the snare line the third year marched top 12 DCI. But in that fourth and final year, they were forced to drop in class and in size with inexperienced local kids. Size and classification are mutually exclusive in WGI. Classification is based on design, demand, and execution, not the size of the line. The "positive" spin on a very sad story is that anyone trying to start a corps should look in the mirror first. Realize that a lot of misguided passion with very little knowledge of the process (especially creative) can cause the ultimate implosive black hole. Your staff will leave. Your players will follow. If you really don't believe that, give it a shot. Your best protocol in starting a group, in my opinion, is to make sure you KNOW your own weaknesses and surround yourself with those who balance those weaknesses out, call you on it, and most important LISTEN TO THEM. Don't try and fund your group with illegal activity, regardless of how noble the end result may seem. And especially don't try to lead the creative process from the business side if you have no clue what you are doing, by OTHER'S opinion, not your own. Stick to the business and leave the creative to those you hired to do so. Carry on, good luck, and I'd be happy to supply tons of names who will back this post up, because it is the REAL story. Now you all go out and start a corps, or make yours in to what you've all dreamed of!

Good approach! Jeff, I've been lurking at DCP for many years; back to the RAMD days. I never posted and I even had a screen name when DCP formed but for the life of me, any screen name I've ever used for any forum doesn't work to sign in, and I've had tons of email addresses since DCP came out so I have no way of finding it. So I started a new one recently (one the mods changed because they said it violated the morality code or something?? When that wasn't even what the name meant, but I digress). In any case, in my lurking I've followed numerous threads about how the attitude has changed on what you say about you and your friends. Players these days follow staff; they aren't as loyal to corps. Like it or not, that's how it works. You can look around DCI and see so many players who've marched multiple corps because their loyalty is to those who design and teach them, not the corps itself. When a staff leaves for somewhere else, the players often follow. That isn't how it was in our day. But it is a whole new generation, and since my last real involvement with any performing group, it has been quite the norm for guard and drums, especially. Horns, maybe not so much. These days, you can have the rock solid management behind the scenes making it all work, and they can be the foundation for it all, but performers are many times more loyal to the staff than the corps and the management who built it. Of course this is generational, as older folks don't do this, but those younger than I think it's normal. I even think there is a thread on one of the DCP forums about it right now; or at least a thread got threadjacked in that direction. I was reading it last night. In any case, I have much respect for your efforts. As much as I'd love to chat, I'm strictly armchair quarterback for the couchmen these days. I hit every show I can, because I travel nationaly for work (for the very company that built Star, no less), but my days of getting involved even at the level of chatting ideas are long gone. I've passed any torch of knowledge I may or may not have had on to the next generation, and love listening to them rant about the same szhit I used to. Best of luck to you, and all trying to take on this task! While I normally only open my mouth to put my foot in it on rare occasion on any forum, this topic holds dear to me because it was always a dream to be involved in something at the ground level. But there is no way I could even get a taste of it at this stage of my life, or else my whole new world of today's important things in life would fall apart while I chase that dream again. Call me an addict. You don't ask an alcoholic in to happy hour, even just for the social part, right, lol? EDIT: I can't spell from my tiny little phone keys. Why do phones even have internet capabilities if you can't type on the dang things?

I hate written word because intent is never perceived correctly. Please don't take my opinion as negative or trying to undermine anyone's efforts... I understand that great staff has to come from somewhere and many times they cut their teeth on small new corps. But even then, future genius in staff shows much future promise even at the lowest levels as they're grooming in to what they will become. I haven't seen an idiot at the lowest level become some great staff person down the line. They usually show signs of greatness even at the beginning. And my definition of "Top Notch" can vary. I don't necessarily mean bringing in the big guns. Many techs at a national level are going to be great someday, and in many cases, they'll work for peanuts and sometimes nothing to make their bones. And I understand the business side of it. I deal with start-ups all the time in the business world. It is a catch-22 and "###### if you do - ###### if you don't" situaton all the way around. I'm not using Star as an example. I'm not even using DCI as an example, as that is a whole different beast. I couldn't imagine trying to start a corps there these days. I was involved in a DCI start-up in a staff capacity a while back, and I'm sure the issues we'd faced (the staff drove the support vehicles all night to the next show) are nothing compared to what happens today. What I am trying to say (unsuccsessfuly, it seems) more-so I guess, is the fact that people with real recent competitive experience aren't going to flock, even in moderate numbers, to a start up DCA corps just getting it's feet off the ground, unless it is those same people behind the start up, the staff is well respected, and the vision for short-term growth is clearly defined as having a goal of getting on the field competing yesterday. I don't know of anyone who would choose a parade corps with aspirations, over a proven DCA powerhouse that can be driven to in 4-6 hours. Heck, I don't even know what I'm saying or what my intent is, come to think of it lol. Again, I give you guys all the credit in the world for doing what you do, and for people like Jeff who live daily with "more issues" yet still continue on with their dream year after year. It's gotta be tough and I certainly have no insight or holy grail. I can only say what I, and the large group of people I know still marching or wanting to march would do. We want to compete at the highest level on the field. It doesn't matter what classification. But I know that few people I'm in contact with would jump ship from an established corps to stay closer to home, or put the old marching shoes back on, if the staff to lead them wasn't there. True, staffs have to start somewhere. And true, a good staff person does take ideas and vision from those more experienced, however in most groups I've been involved with, junior and senior, it isn't the norm for the staff to get that from the corps proper. That leads to the inmates running the asylum. Any program where the marching members did that... well, it became a big ego fight that in some cases still lasts to this day, even though the corps is long gone as a competitive field corps. And I've never been involved with a DCI corps where a member would even think of suggesting something to staff, at any level. If your staff is not of the highest level you can afford (<key words), then you won't get the best performers. You can survive with poor equipment. You can survive on a shoestring to get to/from shows. You can't thrive without a top-notch staff and design team. When it all comes down to it, there isn't anything in the water in one area that makes the performing members any better than others. It all comes down to the staff. That is my opinion, and I'm sticking with it. Oh, and my understanding on the WGI Project thing is that Dave never PAID his national team, lol. They did it because they loved it, and they put a lot of their own money in to it as well. And I do know that people DID come. At one point their entire large battery and a good portion of their front ensemble were marching top 12 DCI at the same time. And those who didn't were music majors. Many came from as far away as Connecticut. The staff brought the people. And that's a whole different ballgame, really. Getting a good drumline together is easy if the staff is there. They usually bring a lot of their students/players with them and drummers are different beasts in the first place. Give them good beats and they'll be there, and you can be very good with minimal numbers of people, if their technique and approach is solid. Putting together a full corps.... now THAT is way tougher, I'm sure.

I think staff is most crucial. That, and having clearly defined goals. I think in most metro areas you have the bodies, but those with real competitive corps experience are only going to show up if the management and especially staff is top-notch, and not friends of the founders or someone who may have marched a year in the local college band that you take because they work for free and might bring some local unexperienced talent with them. Many times in the mid-sized cities, you can get "stuck" if you hire local staff, because it's a small world and unless they are respected in the activity already, you can't attract experienced members in volume because many times, people from one clique in that area don't like the people from another. The only way to solve this is to go outside of your area and get a respected non-local staff. Box five staff attracts box five membership, and I know many who travel simply because of the staff at any particular corps. When your potential membership has more experience than those you have teaching them, then you are only going to get sub-par membership or those without any prior experience, because they don't know any better. If that is your goal and you want to build from the ground up, then great; I hope it all works for you and I'll be the first to cheer you on. I also personally wouldn't march a slow-growth corps, and neither would anyone I know. If I'm going to give my time, sweat and dollars up, I want to go somewhere where they are shooting for the stars right out of the gate. Of course, I never started/founded any corps so I don't have a leg to stand on. But I do know that I, or anyone I know with corps experience, wouldn't march anywhere new unless the corps had that focus and vision to go for it and hire the best national staff "what little money they have" can buy. I respect anyone taking on this endevour, and for anyone not aiming to field a competitive corps soon and build slowly, if that works for you, then by all means, do it up! To the fledgling corps directors and "future" new corps directors- You are blessed individuals to take this feat on, and I have great admiration for you. I couldn't do it if my life depended on it.