Morgoth Bauglir

I would love to see cymbal lines return. I wonder if WGI will have any impact on them coming back. While many drum corps do not march cymbals, I think it's safe to say most indoor lines DO march them. They are a lot easier to hear inside. And the visual impact of 5 more marchers doing unique things with flashy surfaces is great in indoor. In WGI, cymbals lines are growing. Now whether that will transfer to DCI is another question. With more WGI cymbalists out there, that means there are more players with experience who are able to march and teach. And with the 150 rule passing, the "we need more horns" argument is null. Even if they added 5 cyms, they would still get 10 more horn spots. Only time will tell. I hope they come back.

You act as if tastes are directly tied to demographic. That as a person ages, his tastes will shift to conform to he new demographic. Sorry, but if a 17 year old gets into drum corps when there are Bb horns, when he turns 40 he's not going to all of a sudden like G horns and elevator drill just because the 40 year olds NOW like that stuff. "How can DCI keep legacy fans in the fold" is a good question. How do you think? Every way I can imagine involves DCI pushing the shows of the 70s and 80s more. Advertise the Legacy DVDs of 70s shows. Have more Classic Countdowns. That kind of thing. In short, put more focus on the era of drum corps that today's legacy fans marched in and enjoyed. Would that not help keep them in the fold? I think it would. And I also think that would be entirely pointless. The number of people who enjoy 70s and 80s shows is shrinking. So wasting the little money and time DCI has on the demographic that likes that stuff is not good business. DCI needs to always be looking to the future. If, as you say, legacy fans are to be "renewable", then new fans need to be attracted TODAY. And that's not going to happen by showing them frumpy cadet style uniforms, G bugles, elevator drill, and grainy VHS recordings. It's going to happen by showing them that today's corps play on the same horns they use in school. it's going to happen by relating to them. Not by relating to old people. The new marchers and new fans are teenagers right now. So basing your advertising campaign off what is attractive to 50 year old alumni who marched in 1976 is inept. So that brings me to what I originally said: There really is no point. Legacy fans are a finite number. They will grow old, and yes, even die. If drum corps is to survive at all, the attraction of new fans, ones who are young, is absolutely paramount. Even the legacy fans started out the exact same way: as young marchers and fans. Now this does not mean that DCI must adopt new rules and such like electronics, synths, strings, and rap-music shows. I do believe there are ways to attract new fans without fundamentally changing the activity. We just need to try harder to find out what those ways are, not just cop out and turn DCI into a live MTV production. But the end goal must be clear and unwavering: the attraction of new fans.

Sounds rockin

That about sums it up.

I guess getting ESPN, and Finals in the theater as well as the Classic Countdown don't count huh?

lol a .22lr conversion kit for a Yamaha horn :P

If you actually read my first post in this thread, I said I didn't think electronics are the answer.

But to become "legacy fans" the kids need to be new fans first. And that only comes by putting them first. If the choice has to be made between getting new fans and alienating the old ones, or keeping the old ones happy at the expense of new fans, the logical choice will always be new fans. I think there are ways to keep both. But if it really comes down to it, the legacy fans are indeed a finite source. If you're not attracting new fans, who is going to be the next batch of legacy fans? The same things are just not going to be entertaining or worthwhile to each new generation. No matter how awesome the 70s marchers thought their era was, and it was indeed awesome for them, you would be hard pressed to get kids in 2006 into that kind of drum corps. It all comes down to generational tastes. If the fans from the 70s and 80s prefer one thing, and the fans from the 2000s prefer another, which do you choose to focus on? The answer is simple. There will never be another generation of 70s marchers. But the 2007 generation is just about to begin. Focus on what each new generation wants, because without them, the cycle stops. The legacy fans of tomorrow are going to be built on the shows of the 2000s, not the 1970s. Like it or not, that's the way it is.

No one is being "strung along". The term "strung along" in your context clearly means that the staff of the corps is taking the kids money, telling him he has a good shot at marching, and doesn't care if he winds up disappointed at the end of the season having spent 2000 for "nothing". If that's not what you mean, please explain in detail what you meant by "don't string them along".

I think we're operating using different definitions of "legacy fans". How do you define legacy fan and could you explain how they are renewable?

No alternate is promised anything. Maybe it wouldn't be worth it to you to be an alternate, but it is to some people. At least they have a chance, and are spending a year with the corps. That"s better than staying home to some people. No one is forced to be an alternate. They are told they didn't make the line, and they can either not march at all, or be an alternate. If you personally don't think that's worth it, don't do it. But other kids may think it's a great stepping stoe towards making the corps next season, or even marching this one. That's their choice, not yours.

I think that the majority of America is less than intelligent when it comes to taste in entertianment. Just look at the TV, music, and movies that are popular. The Simple Life? MTV? America has bad taste IMO. A drum corps playing Rachmaninoff doesn't appeal to them. But it does appeal to us. Drum corps is simply more sophisticated than most other forms of entertainment. I'm all for DCI learning different business models from other organizations. But I have a feeling that to really attract all those untapped fans people are talking about, we would need to change our product to appeal to them. And I'll be honest, after seeing the other things that appeal to most Americans, I can't say I would be excited to see whatever drum corps looked like to attract those fans. call me an elitist or whatever, but I just don't find low-brow overplaying rap shows entertaining in the least. If DCI has to move in that that direction in order to attract the same people who go to HBOB, count me out.

Spots are set when the individual instructors feel like it. I don't know about horns, but in most drumlines, each sub-section has it's own auditon process. So the snare line might be set by December, and the tenors might not be set til January or even February. When the tech feels he has the right guys on the line, he'll stop the audition. If not, he'll keep going. In Crossmen 05, the tenor auditions went until like April or something. It was pretty crazy. And in some corps, if there are alternates, someone who is really sucking it up might get the axe while on tour, and the alternate gets his spots. Drum corps auditions aren't at all like high school band or sports where everyone tries out at one or two camps and the a big list of who made it is posted for all to see. Cuts are almost always done 1 on 1 with the tech. Just keep going until you get "the talk". And if you have aspirations of trying out next year, ask if you can keep coming just to learn.

A few questions. Is the Honda show only one show, or is it an entire series of competitions spread over a few months all across the nations? How many bands perform at the Honda show? From what I gather, it's only one show. So this is the only chance that many of these fans have to see the programs performed. DCI on the other hand, has over 100 shows over 3 months. There are even more than a couple regionals which draw about 15,000-20,000 each. So fans have a lot of opportunities to see the corps of their choice. If one goes to Indy, you don't really have to go to Finals in Cali, since you have seen all of the shows. And a lot of people cannot afford to go to Finals, but can go to a local show, or one a few hours away. I would wager that the combined audience of DCI shows through the summer is much much higher than 60,000. I wouldn't be surprised if 500,000 people total attended DCI shows in one summer. And there is also the fact that the HBOB seems to have more performing units that DCI. This means more parents, families, and friends who might not otherwise be fans. "Marketing" really had nothing to do with them showing up. Their kid, or brother, or niece was in a band, so they came to see them. The same thing happens in DCI. But if HBOB has more participating units, than a higher % of that 60,000 is probably going to be relatives and not real "fans".

Are you talking about a logistical business type learning from HBCUI, or actual drum corps shows emulating show style shows?

That's exactly what I'm saying. They perform a new halftime show every week because that is the focus of those kinds of programs. 3 or 4 fairly easy songs with 10 drill sets total is indeed good enough for a football crowd. What would a show band look like that had 127 drill sets, difficult music, and practiced 9 hours a day for 80 days? I don't know. It doesn't exist yet. But the OP is either asking to compare something that doesn't exist to drum corps, or to compare current show bands to drum corps. There is no answer for the first one, and for the second one, the answer is IMO, the show band would do poorly.

There really is no point. Legacy fans are a finite number. They will grow old, and yes, even die. If drum corps is to survive at all, the attraction of new fans, ones who are young, is absolutely paramount. Even the legacy fans started out the exact same way: as young marchers and fans. Now this does not mean that DCI must adopt new rules and such like electronics, synths, strings, and rap-music shows. I do believe there are ways to attract new fans without fundamentally changing the activity. We just need to try harder to find out what those ways are, not just cop out and turn DCI into a live MTV production. But the end goal must be clear and unwavering: the attraction of new fans.

But that's not true for everyone. That's true for YOU. And you only have the authority to speak for your own tastes, no one else's. If you want a certain kind of show, there are already more than enough venus offering everything you can think of. We don't need to have 4 venues offering the same thing. And I have alreday postulated that the DCI judging system is set up to reward just the kind of shows we already have. A show style band would not do well because the focus of those kinds of show, everything from music selection to what to practice and hone, is not the same thing as what is considered "good" in the DCI judging rubric. If a show style band were indeed to do well, then the judging focus of DCI would have to shift away from the current "tone/precision/sophistication/excellence/cleanliness" rubric, to something else. And it seems to me that some posters in this thread are insinuating that the current DCI shows are un-entertaining, and that is an argument that is more than worn out. If you find show bands to have more energy and enthusiasm than drum corps, and you find current drum corps un-entertaining, than you're in luck, there is already a show style band competition out there for you to attend. Have a good time.

We already have an activity catering to that audience. That's what we're talking about. I personally don't want one conglomerated organization producing only one type of show. If I want indoor, I watch WGI, if I want marching band, I watch BOA, if I want show bands, I watch groups that perfrom at the Honda show, and if I want drum corps I go to DCI/DCA. I don't want DCI acting and sounding like any of those other organizations. Those organizations already fill that niche. This is the same reason why I am against A&E with vocals. BOA and WGI already do that in spades. When I want to see that, I go watch them. WE don't need 2 or 3 organizations all doing the same thing. So if show style competitions draw 60,000 fans, good for them. That means there 60,000 people who like that stuff, but probably don't dig drum corps. Why should we change, and in the process give those 60,000 more of what they want but less drum corps fans what THEY want?? Those 60,000 show style fans already have their Honda Battle of the Bands. Indoor fans already have WGI. And fans of bands with vocals and electronics already have BOA. Let the drum corps fans keep DCI/DCA unchanged.

To be honest, I don't like any of those shows.

Well he does have a point. this thread is about blending a band style with drum corps. And it's no secret that that particular band style relies heavily on vocals in some cases. Being that vocals are a very controversial topic, the mention of them in this thread is relevant. I really don't think the ethnicity of a corps, or really the kind of music they play is important. Though even if a group like Cavies, BD, or Cadets played some modern rap, the show would probably suck. That music just does not lend itself to arranging. What is more important IMO, is the quality of arranging, and the quality of performance. "Show bands" perform for a different audience than a drum corps. The show band audience does not really care about intonation, or blend, and wouldn't know it if they saw it. So show bands tend to play as loud as they can, just for the sake of loud. In addition, show bands, like college bands, tend to have a minimal amount of drill sets and other elements of visual design. Even if SCV did a high mark time in place for 90% of the show, it would score very poorly. The fact is the design elements of show bands and drum corps are in no way alike. So the judging rubric of one really cannot be used to judge the other.

Well the cool thing is, we already have a DCI, a BOA, a WGI, AAAANNNDDDD even a Honda Battle of the Bands. So which ever one you dig, go for it. We don't need 4 of the same thing.

I'm content with the numbers we have now. Jessica Simpson sells a lot more tickets that the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Does that mean that Jessica Simpson is better? No. It means there are more people in this country with bad taste than good taste. Same with the attendance discrepancy between the Honda Battle of the Bands and a DCI show. The fact that Drum Corps is a niche activity with a high degree of intelligence and sophistication is a good thing to me. I don't want to sell out the Georgia Dome, because the kinds of changes that Drum Corps would have to undergo to attract that many people would make it terrible.

For real. His reason for marching(or not) are his own. They don't have to match your standards.

Not really. It's a pretty close up pictures. The black vs white pants excuse doesn't work for everything.