"Open Source" returns for Cadets in 2008

[KingJoeVII]

How about a show where nobody talks into a microphone?

I challenge ya, George

hes already given you 21 years and 8 championships worth of shows like this - I wouldn't really consider it a challenge for him to do so again, I just think hes trying to do something new

[euponitone]

personally i will laugh if the cadets did a decleration show as it was just done and done well i might add, best props at boa!! not to mention the band marches justlike cadets and have cadet uniforms, and the band director at west johnston has been the tour director for cadets for a while now..... interesting.......

Well here is your original post, and you know what??? , you were right....it seems that you were the one that compared this band to the cadets, not me ^0^ . I also do not recall ever claiming that the cadets invented any of the things in question here, although you seemed to have so conveniently inserted that into my argument. However, it logically follows that a band that is copying cadet standards from the 80's (with a director who did not work with them until much later), is probably doing so because of the success that the cadets had previously. How many band shows of phantom of the opera did we see in the late 80's early 90's. How many terrible renditions of 'fight club' have we all had to sit through in 2003??. Sure, the music to phantom of the opera predates santa clara's rendition of it, but it doesnt change the fact that their success with it made it widely popular and thus copied. The same goes for many of the cadet standards in question here. Lets break it down piece by piece for ya -

The uniform - this is where you have your best case, since the 'cadet' west point uniform was at one time the uniform of choice for half of the bands and drum corps in the world. A little known fact is that the holy name cadets didnt even wear this in their first year or so of existance. Now, that being said, im willing to bet that when lance (or whoever) got to decide what uniform to put his school in, he had a myriad of options. You are probably not being realistic if you think that a band director who worked with the cadets didnt have them in mind when selecting the uniform for his marching band (this is dependant of course on him making the selection, if he didnt, then this is irrelevent).

With regard to the right foot step off- You lose some clout here. Ask any fan of the marching arts "who marches on their right foot?". Maybe some groups that i dont know about did it once back in the day, but the fact is that every drum corps, and every marching band that i have EVER seen, marches on their left foot, with the exception of the cadets and those bands that emulate them. Does this mean the cadets 'own' the right foot step-off? no, but with regard to the modern marching arts, i do believe they are the ones that made it into something noteworthy.

And good ole rocky point - You say that hundreds of bands and wind ensembles have played this....well duh. The same goes for just about every piece out there. Perhaps we should restrict corps to playing all original shows, so when they win or do something innovative with it, they wont have to deal with you telling them how the piece isnt a part of their identity. Im sure plenty of groups have done rocky point, and done it well, but i cant off the top of my head remember any who won their first championship in div 1 dci, while performing a show that changed drum corps forever (this really isnt 'borg hyperbole' ... sorry) Honestly, i dont even think rocky point is that great of a piece of music, but no drum corps fan will deny its place in the cadets legacy.

So im sitting here trying to make sense of your last post, and I really cant. You seem to be attacking me for a belief that i dont have. I never once tried to argue that the cadets dont borrow things from bands, yet you went off on a big rant, and accused me of dissing bands for borrowing from the cadets. Its all getting a little circular for me honestly. I think its an incredible honor that bands still do things to emulate corps, although much of it is past traditions, and not current innovations. As far as the band in question, i'd still be willing to bet that they do a lot of the things they do because of what the cadets (and other corps did) in years past. I never once argued that corps dont borrow from bands, not that i care anyway.

As for the notion that I dont have a leg to stand on, and that my ideas are ridiculous, i find it odd that only you have the vision to see this, while noone else is attacking me - yet, several people have thought your post was a joke. Normally on this forum, when someone makes a foolish post (such as yours), they are jumped on quickly. Perhaps its because you spend as much time throwing the tired ol' borg joke around as you do trying to make a point, and when you do make a point, it shows a blatent disregard for anything that could be construed as logic...

[^Michael^]

<snip inane BS>

I would say open source is merely because they cant think of anything new on there own! sad really.

And I would say - you are sadly mistaken.... <**>

[LAMystreaux]

...relentless pursuit of the edge.

It means lead (don't follow) or get out of the way.

Don't follow the high school programs anymore, Hop...you can create, innovate, inspire and make West Johnston and every other high school crib from you. It can be done, and done well. It can even use voice in a way that can get nay-sayers on board. There's no need to go "Up With People", or resort to cheap jingoistic tugs at emotion.

It can be done.

The Cadets tradition of innovation demands it. :)

Just because the inital idea for a theme for a show comes from something a high school recently did means nothing. His initial inspiration could take an entirely different direction. Goodness, I am sure many high schools have done Billy Joel before, or William Tell, a show based on crime/criminals. . .the list goes on and on.

Its irritating how some of you (GMichael and gang) use this idiotic rational to instantly trash a show, a director, a corps, etc that has yet to even begin production of the show you are criticizing. Again, Cadets receive criticism above what other corps do.

I'm not calling you out specifically, Bawker. . .just felt like this needed to be said.

[LAMystreaux]

now cadets 2005 production??? yeah saw that in high school band before cadets did it!

No, wrong again. You saw or heard of a high school doing a show with the same theme. . .beyond that, the shows were very very different. But, I guess for people like you and GMichael, the more times you say something, even if it is false, it becomes true in your head.

[Brassop]

Ben Franklin: When I was in school, I seemed different, I never seemed to fit in. But then when I put on the swimming paddles I invented, something magical happened. I knew one day I would be a part of the Continental Congress.

Benedict Arnold: I believe in Choice.

[bawker]

I'm not calling you out specifically, Bawker. . .just felt like this needed to be said.

I know...and, hey, this "Declaration" show isn't even going to be the real theme, most likely....so we're all angry about a hypothetical. :P

Anyhoo, I guess its always been a pet peeve of mine to see anyone crib from high school or WGI shows. We pride ourselves on such innovation and creativity in our "Major League", yet sometimes it seems to be the opposite.

I've softened my stance considerably since 2004: I'm for voice, electronics and everything short of woodwinds if its done well, and done in a manner that doesn't seem forced, hokey or tries to tell me what to think. That may be really painting myself into a corner, but I feel like if I'm asked to evolve as a fan, you (as a creator) need to show me that evolution in a creative and new manner. I have been failed creatively by show design for the most part by that definition.

One or two shows have barely scratched the surface of the above to me (and, quite frankly, none of those have been Cadets shows...yet)...and the creators owe themselves, the members and yes, even the fans, the best they have...not someone elses warmed over winterguard or BOA show, even as "inspiration".

I don't have a music education degree...and neither do a lot of us here...but if people in threads here can come up with original ideas and thoughts (and in some cases, entire show designs) in this tiny arena of the drum corps world, then it can obviously be done by those who are paid for their creativity.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I have great respect for you as an educator, and for your posts here...but I hope you can see how some folks feel let down a little seeing things in BOA/WGI one year, then DCI the next.

I know its said all artists steal, but instead of plagirizing/ cannibalizing the other marching circuits....steal from Pollock, Warhol, Ginastera, Maslanka, Renoir....look at visual design in advertising, in architecture, even in nature...there's so much more we could do.

Someone has to step up. Who will it be?

[euponitone]

I know...and, hey, this "Declaration" show isn't even going to be the real theme, most likely....so we're all angry about a hypothetical. :P

Anyhoo, I guess its always been a pet peeve of mine to see anyone crib from high school or WGI shows. We pride ourselves on such innovation and creativity in our "Major League", yet sometimes it seems to be the opposite.

I've softened my stance considerably since 2004: I'm for voice, electronics and everything short of woodwinds if its done well, and done in a manner that doesn't seem forced, hokey or tries to tell me what to think. That may be really painting myself into a corner, but I feel like if I'm asked to evolve as a fan, you (as a creator) need to show me that evolution in a creative and new manner. I have been failed creatively by show design for the most part by that definition.

One or two shows have barely scratched the surface of the above to me (and, quite frankly, none of those have been Cadets shows...yet)...and the creators owe themselves, the members and yes, even the fans, the best they have...not someone elses warmed over winterguard or BOA show, even as "inspiration".

I don't have a music education degree...and neither do a lot of us here...but if people in threads here can come up with original ideas and thoughts (and in some cases, entire show designs) in this tiny arena of the drum corps world, then it can obviously be done by those who are paid for their creativity.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I have great respect for you as an educator, and for your posts here...but I hope you can see how some folks feel let down a little seeing things in BOA/WGI one year, then DCI the next.

I know its said all artists steal, but instead of plagirizing/ cannibalizing the other marching circuits....steal from Pollock, Warhol, Ginastera, Maslanka, Renoir....look at visual design in advertising, in architecture, even in nature...there's so much more we could do.

Someone has to step up. Who will it be?

I will take the ring.....though i do not know the way......

[thx3838]

I know...and, hey, this "Declaration" show isn't even going to be the real theme, most likely....so we're all angry about a hypothetical. :P

Anyhoo, I guess its always been a pet peeve of mine to see anyone crib from high school or WGI shows. We pride ourselves on such innovation and creativity in our "Major League", yet sometimes it seems to be the opposite.

I've softened my stance considerably since 2004: I'm for voice, electronics and everything short of woodwinds if its done well, and done in a manner that doesn't seem forced, hokey or tries to tell me what to think. That may be really painting myself into a corner, but I feel like if I'm asked to evolve as a fan, you (as a creator) need to show me that evolution in a creative and new manner. I have been failed creatively by show design for the most part by that definition.

One or two shows have barely scratched the surface of the above to me (and, quite frankly, none of those have been Cadets shows...yet)...and the creators owe themselves, the members and yes, even the fans, the best they have...not someone elses warmed over winterguard or BOA show, even as "inspiration".

I don't have a music education degree...and neither do a lot of us here...but if people in threads here can come up with original ideas and thoughts (and in some cases, entire show designs) in this tiny arena of the drum corps world, then it can obviously be done by those who are paid for their creativity.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I have great respect for you as an educator, and for your posts here...but I hope you can see how some folks feel let down a little seeing things in BOA/WGI one year, then DCI the next.

I know its said all artists steal, but instead of plagirizing/ cannibalizing the other marching circuits....steal from Pollock, Warhol, Ginastera, Maslanka, Renoir....look at visual design in advertising, in architecture, even in nature...there's so much more we could do.

Someone has to step up. Who will it be?

i agree 100 and 50 percent!!

Edited July 26, 2007 by thx3838

[thx3838]

No, wrong again. You saw or heard of a high school doing a show with the same theme. . .beyond that, the shows were very very different. But, I guess for people like you and GMichael, the more times you say something, even if it is false, it becomes true in your head.

actually no you are wrong, marc syvester, did the same idea (before the cadets did it) with a high school band that he wrote for. If you still think im wrong ...ask him, hes very open about it, ..after all at least marc is creative, if anything he steals from himself!

which is a heck of a lot better than stealing from others!