Curtis Costanza and The Bluecoats

[oldtimedrummer]

OK. Lovely speech. Who wouldn't agree with that?

Now......since we're "speaking in general," what about the judges?

People are implying that there is something either sinsiter going on or downright incompetent. Enough already. PROVE IT. Or let it go. People talk and talk about how the kids deserve this and the kids deserve that. And that's true. Agreed 1000%. But so do the JUDGES deserve the benefit of the doubt that they can put down their honest assessment of a performance and not have to be attacked blindly by a bunch of hacks or blowhards on the message boards who are not sitting in their shoes, looking or listening with their eyes and ears, or inside of their heads when these shows are taking place.

I can't even believe I'm asking this question, but...Do we really even WANT these judges to be honest? I have to ask myself that sometimes when I read the stuff people write on these boards. Sometimes I think we just want all the judges to put down the same placements and spreads all season long, no matter what the night, no matter who the competition is, no matter if the performance deserves it or not (which is subjective anyway), or no matter what other variable affects a number on any given night. If you were judging, would you want someone attacking you because another judge on another night had a different result than what you put down?? Even if your assessment might be different than those of many of your colleagues? Do you always look at what other judges put down at previous shows to guide you in the number YOU put down? I sincerely doubt it.

What's worse is that by the way you've said some things here, you obviously HAVE done some judging at this level before. Whether it was for DCI or DCA or WGI, I don't know. But if that's true, you've probably worked with many of these judges before or know them personally. Tell me...would you ever say these things to their faces? And talk about accountability, would you ever put YOUR name on the line and post your critical judging comments on DCP without the pseudonym? Better yet, would you care to post some of the big shows you've judged over the years so we can examine all of your numbers with a fine tooth comb to check for "suspicious irregularities?" What do you say when a staff member or someone totally unrelated to the performance attacks your numbers and accuses you of some sort of impropriety? Do you enjoy having your reputation and personal integrity questioned? Is it fair when someone thinks your numbers should be in line with everyone elses even if you honestly disagree with them?

This whole thread STINKS to high heaven. I can't wait to see these people complaining when a number seems "out of place" the OTHER way and their corps is given a boost which seems not aligned with previous shows numbers. I'm sure they'll be filing their complaints with DCI the second the recaps are posted. It's a competition, yes, and these people are human. Imperfect, as are we all. Let's keep this in perspective. Accusations without proof is just a recipe for needless ugliness which solves nothing.

(For crying out loud, I'm agreeing with GMichael! Lord help us all...) :)

And for the record, I don't always agree with the judges decisions. I think they sometimes make mistakes, and I've had my share of heated discussions with several of them through the years at critiques. But all of that is just part of the game to me. There is actually a place for that in this activity. It's the direct attack at a person's integrity as a professional without proof that, to me, is what makes much of what's going on here over the line and unnecessary.

I think if you read the entire thread you'll see I've actually stayed out of the whole Costanza debate because I wasn't in Denver. I'm more concerned about what I saw with my own eyes in Indy! For the record, I've always thought that Curtis is pretty darn good judge. I do think it''s odd that the Troop dropped two points though. By this time of the year, the neighborhoods are pretty well established. A two point swing is something one might see in the A class at WGI where there's hundreds of guards. Keeping track of twenty some Div 1 drum corps should be a relativity easy task for an experienced judge. Somewhere in the process there's a problem with appropriate and consistent RATING with regards to the Troop.

Yes, I've held a tape recorder and clip board a few times and maybe that's why when I see something as blatant as Sat in Indy I feel like bringing it to the boards. Why not? If a NBA ref makes a terrible call it all over the news. Most of the time I stay out of this type of thing for the reasons you so well stated above. You made some good points BTW. There's a huge difference between a judge missing a call, (which we all do) and the one who intentionally tries to swing a contest or support a favored team. There's the rub! I've been around it too long and am and not naive to the fact that there are certain judges who 'lean" certain directions. Fortunately, the vast majority of the judges are very hard working, honest individuals who take their craft very seriously. The whole notion that they they are beyond reproach though, or that they should never be questioned goes against my grain. (Kinda like those who feel you should never question or challenge the government) As far as "telling them to their face" about something as blatant as Sat? YOU BET, I wouldn't hesitate for a second. Bottom line, when you miss an obvious call like Sat, people are going to talk.

Edited July 31, 2007 by oldtimedrummer

[audiodb]

I do think it''s odd that the Troop dropped two points though.

Yes, it is. But it is also interesting to note that we don't see a dozen Trooper supporters all over this thread, insinuating that Curtis Costanza dumps every Mitch Rogers drill in visual GE because Rogers married Costanza's childhood sweetheart.

Personally, I'm not ready to demand that this one judge put his opinions aside and conform to the rest. Of all the top corps, the one drill that really impressed me from up high was that of SCV. Costanza had them in first in GE visual in Denver. While this Bluecoat/Trooper thing does bear watching, I wouldn't throw him under the bus just yet.

[audiodb]

Well, this thread piqued my curiousity....

I don't have the 2006 recaps handy, but it does look like Curtis Costanza wasn't as impressed with the Bluecoats in 2005 as most of his peers, regardless of whether he was judging guard, GE visual, ensemble or visual performance. However, 2004 is a different story. His guard number for Bluecoats in DCI finals boosted them a couple of spots in their caption from semifinals, and he had them on a similar pace in earlier shows. In 2003, his Bluecoats scores fell in line with other judges. Oh, and Mitch Rogers was drill writer for Bluecoats for all those years.

So for the conspiracy theory to work, Rogers must have run off with Costanza's girlfriend at some point between the 2004 and 2005 seasons....

[MDetch]

to add fuel to the fire...

a lot of the bluecoats staff/fmms are helping troop this year...

[GMichael1230]

to add fuel to the fire...

a lot of the bluecoats staff/fmms are helping troop this year...

...and popsicles are cold when you touch them to your tounge...

~G~

[Top Cat]

Hey Guys: Bluecoat's staff is very professional - all captions. They are more than aware of any judge "bias'" affecting their outcome. No doubt they have been in close contact with not only Mr. Carlson but John Phillips as well. Besides all that, I understand, Gene Monterastelli (DCI Hall of Fame, visual judge, teacher extraordinare) is with the Bluecoats this year. Gene does not let a subject like this slip past him.

Look at it this way as well, all these touring shows and even the big regional shows are just warm up - preliminary performances. The objective and goal for the corps & staff's is championship weekend, and in the case of a top 6 unit - finals. That's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - everything else is setup for this show. If there is a Bluecoats (or any other corps) biased judge out there, its the finals panel that counts and that is where their emphasis will be placed.

[Meaghatron]

His score for the Bluecoats' color guard (Boise competition) seems pretty on spot.

[MDetch]

...and popsicles are cold when you touch them to your tounge...

~G~

I don't know exactly what that's supposed to mean...

...but I'm not suprised you'd chime in with some unwanted quazi-clever quip

keep up the good work

[LAMystreaux]

I don't know exactly what that's supposed to mean...

...but I'm not suprised you'd chime in with some unwanted quazi-clever quip

keep up the good work

Yes, typical.

[Elmo Blatch]

(Copied from another poster)

After looking at last night's recaps, I was horrified to see that Curtis Costanza was judging the GE Visual caption. One would find it impossible to argue the fact that he consistently scores the Bluecoats abnormally low. It is almost tolerable when he judges colorguard. However, when he judges something with the weight of an effect caption, it's a huge kick to the grapes.

There are, essentially, two ways one can look at this situation:

1. He has an obvious negative bias that is personal in nature. (I would almost relate it to the DCI version of Tim Donaghy.)

2. He is simply not competent to judge at this level. I know what you're going to say. "DCI wouldn't give him the spot if he were not competent." HORSE CRAP. If 9 out of 10 other judges see things differently, who is wrong?

Either way, I hope he doesn't make his way to the Mid-West next year in August.

Bugle B

Elmo Blatch