Bluecoats Brass this year

[Richard]

So, they low ball the number to cover their rear end and then 15 minutes later they forget the whole thing and they are lucky if they can even spell Bluecoats.

Right, that's the issue, not the number but the ranking of subsequent corps. The 19.5 was the probably the best score Lo could give with 6 corps left. It's where he placed the rest of the corps in relation to 'coats that causes a problem.

Personally, I'd like to believe that all judges are honest and call every corps according to the back of the sheet, nothing more and nothing less. I KNOW this is not true, but I'd still like to believe it.

Also, maybe they should add another Brass judge like they did with Percussion. Someone up top to help normalize some of these things.

[silvertrombone]

You know what happened? Judges love to put BD on top of brass for whatever reason. BD"S hornline was sitting in 4th all year and then their in 1st. YEah ok NOT!!! Blue Coats got hosed. They had a great pure sound to them and you can tell alot of talen, much like we had in 01 at cadets, but guess what we were 3rd in brass finals night and basically winning in horns the whole season.

Until people realize that as GOod as BD is Judges give them the benefit of the doubt over other corps when it comes to horns for what they did in the 90's. Always will be like that too.

Sorry blue Coats. thought you guys did have a top 3 hornline. I thought Cadets should have won Brass based on how hard their techiniality and you guys should have been 2nd for your sound with Crown in 3rd for theirs. Pick a spot for everyone else. BD was no better than a 4th place hornline this year and everyone knew it and Corps got screwed because of it.

Whatever. Wayne Downey and Jack Meehan were producing stellar brass lines before you were producing dirty diapers.

Coats had an amazing line this year..Beautiful balanced sound throughout the show...I wasn't shocked seeing them not win brass, but I was shocked to see them finish 4th with BD taking it..The lowest I could see them was 3rd VERY close behind The Cadets and Phantom...I really thought this was the weakest BD line I had heard in years. They finished 5th at a regional and I figured they would end up finsihing 4th or 5th at finals also but no higher. The semis spread was a little rough also..BD beat Coats by a half a point in brass?? I really thought it was a misprint when I saw it at first..I'm not bashing any judge because I wasn't on the field so he could of heard stuff which I couldn't hear..But I could hear how sloppy BD's trumpets were at the end of the brass lick after the drum feature..Anyone could hear that..And you could also hear how clean and balanced the Coats licks were...The Coats brass book allowed for more exposed sections also, and they just nailed it every time I heard them. Oh well, just my take..Regardless, I know which show I will be listening to the most for years to come..

I keep saying experience and Blooo is getting there, but they still lack the experience that BD and Cadets bring to the table. That experience is what is able to dig deep finals week and produce a little bit of an "extra special" performance. I marched DCI two years, one in a non-elite, non-finalist, and one in an elite. I didn't experience finals night stuff until the end of the second year and the stuff I experienced would have paid great dividends had I returned for my age-out. Oops. Those in Coats the last two years have had some great experiences. Now they have to learn how to dig deep when the top 3/4 do and dig a little deeper. When they do that, look out! Especially the next year!! Sorry to keep bringing up my whole whopping two years in DCI. We draw on what we draw on.

Like most others, I loved the Coats' brass. I was surprised to see Phantom finish ahead of them, but the Cadets caught up to the Coats awhile before finals week, and BD's brass really peaked at the right moment. I care about music more than anything, and the top 4 brass shows (along with BK) are going to be getting the most listening time, I think. I only hope hornlines are as good next year, overall.

Ditto, all of it.

Noted - but I believe the implied question is "How does Bluecoats brass go from winning regionals and Quarterfinals to all of a sudden dropping to 4th at Semis and Finals?"

Could be any corps, any caption. Under the those circumstances it is a legit question.

How does BD start the season off so strong every year (seemingly) then get passed so often? San Antonio last year, 1/4finals by Cavies' 007, etc. You have a strong night and somebody else has an average night and splooie! You're in 1st, they drop to 4th. Again, experience. Phantom draws on that. They don't plan their show for San Antonio, obviously. That much shows from the finals results the last several years. Should have done the Strauss, but birds did alright.

BD drew on its experience and dug deep--extra deep to beat this strong crowd of brass, percussion and corps in general! Amazing!

Cadets drew deep and passed Coats late--gave BD a run for their money each night but came up short on the judges sheets.

Phantom drew deep and passed them, too. Good hornline hyped for a strong finals performance as they normally give. ALWAYS watch out for Rockford on finals night. INSANELY good last performance performers--always have been. Don't know why that is...

Blooo has a good line. Not BD's, though. Maybe next year. If they stay at this level the next two years there's no excuse for their staff not kicking it up a notch. DRAW IT OUT of them!

But quarterfinals isn't finals, and second place isn't first place.

don't remember what I was going to say...obviously as great as your comment...

So your examples come from 16 years ago and 26 years ago. So, in the past 26 years we can say that this has happened only a handful of times when we know for a fact that there have been numerous examples of groups that were outside the top three that should have won. This year is a perfect example. Crown and Bluecoats both should have beaten BD in Brass. Crown's brass line was unreal and they were no where close to even being in the hunt (same thing happened to them last year too). Phantom's drum line should have won this year too.

So, there are four example example in the past 2 years of groups that should have been far higher in their caption placement than they were, but were brought down by the overall placement, I gave you 4 examples in the last 2 years.....you gave me 2 examples in the past 26

Does that show you that the judges just might be a little bit weak?

I agree that the judging, in general, is suspect to say the least. But your "16 and 26" comment is off-base. The big three captions were almost ALL won by the 4/6/7 corps with the 3 corps taking GE. I say big three as in percussion, guard, and brass by the previous order. Phantom, Crown, and Blooo led these captions for a great part of the season until the last week. Now THAT is exciting! THAT'S how this thing becomes competitive at the top, by lower corps competing in individual captions and then becoming more competitive in additional captions.

Two things then have to happen:

1.) Slotting has to end. If 5 corps are competitive in the brass caption, then 5 corps take 19.8's and 20's home with them. Same in other captions.

2.) Judging community standards have GOT to come up. Too much bias, for BD brass, for Cavies visual/GE, etc. Whoever has had 30 great years in whatever caption just MIGHT have an off-year in, say colorguard, and not fare so well because of it. Oops! Doesn't matter if you're a wannabe bus mom for that corps, you have to be CAPABLE and WILLING to put them in third or even--EGAD!--6th!! Heaven forbid.

My thoughts.

[roosevelt]

Right, that's the issue, not the number but the ranking of subsequent corps. The 19.5 was the probably the best score Lo could give with 6 corps left. It's where he placed the rest of the corps in relation to 'coats that causes a problem.

Personally, I'd like to believe that all judges are honest and call every corps according to the back of the sheet, nothing more and nothing less. I KNOW this is not true, but I'd still like to believe it.

Also, maybe they should add another Brass judge like they did with Percussion. Someone up top to help normalize some of these things.

Yeah I totally agree. I could care less about what number someone gets because to me all that matters is the placement and the subsequent spread between corps in each caption.

[roosevelt]

Silvertrombone

I agree with most of your post except your comment about the 4/6/7 corps winning the captions untill finals week. That is the problem. The judges made calls at those earlier shows becuase it was easier (i.e shows were smaller and therefore made comparisons easier and the numbers managament easier). But in the end none of these corps won a caption during finals week.

Crown's guard probably should have won...they didn't

Bluecoats brass probably should have won...they didn't

Pnathom's Percussion section definately should have won....they didn't

I was very excited coming in to finals week just for this reason. A bunch of corps that are not in the title hunt that could win caption awards. ...but in the end the same thing happened that always does: the caption awards are reserved for the top three

[Mouthpiece1234]

Would you be confident enough to walk up to Andy Poor and ask him, "Hey, Andy, did you $#@& up on quarters night?"

I wouldn't ask that question like that lol.

But you can't give a 19.80, with only .20 to spare for the next 4 corps. What if you find a better brassline? What do you do give them a perfect? What if the next brassline's even better? Give them a perfect? What if the next one is better? give them a perfect?

He could only go lower for phantom cavies cadets and bd.

[octavia9299]

I wouldn't ask that question like that lol.

But you can't give a 19.80, with only .20 to spare for the next 4 corps. What if you find a better brassline? What do you do give them a perfect? What if the next brassline's even better? Give them a perfect? What if the next one is better? give them a perfect?

He could only go lower for phantom cavies cadets and bd.

He sure could have tied a 19.8 or given a 19.9 that night if he felt another brassline was better. Since he's the chief brass judge, I think he knew what he was doing.

[rut-roh]

I wouldn't ask that question like that lol.

But you can't give a 19.80, with only .20 to spare for the next 4 corps. What if you find a better brassline? What do you do give them a perfect? What if the next brassline's even better? Give them a perfect? What if the next one is better? give them a perfect?

He could only go lower for phantom cavies cadets and bd.

So in other words, if a corps goes on fifth from last, no matter how good they are or how much they satisfy the criteria on the back of the sheet, that judge can go NO higher than a 19.6??? Ridiculous...

[Mouthpiece1234]

So in other words, if a corps goes on fifth from last, no matter how good they are or how much they satisfy the criteria on the back of the sheet, that judge can go NO higher than a 19.6??? Ridiculous...

I never said that, they can win brass with a 19.2 or a 15.5 , and it would have looked like he gave ample room incase someone had a better brassline. It's not the number that was the deal, it was how much room he gave incase he would see a better brassline. How can you squeeze 4 more corps in 0.2 (IF they were better). What if they were 0.5 better? can you give a 20.3? what about if they were 0.6 better than the last corps? a 20.9? Unfortunately you can't do that, 20's the max. with only a 0.1 as the minimal increment.

Again it's not the number it's the space. You need to work with the 20.0 points you have so that there is room to compare.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Mouthpiece1234

[octavia9299]

I never said that, they can win brass with a 19.2, and it would have looked like he gave ample room incase someone had a better brassline. It's not the number that was the deal, it was how much room he gave incase he would see a better brassline.

Well, the number has a message too. It's a SCALE, for crying out loud, and the actual numbers and spreads are supposed to have relevance.

[Richard]

So in other words, if a corps goes on fifth from last, no matter how good they are or how much they satisfy the criteria on the back of the sheet, that judge can go NO higher than a 19.6??? Ridiculous...

Sad but true. And I don't see a way around it other than giving multiple corps the same number, which would undoubted cause even more controversy. The issue is not the number but placement. If that line that receives a 19.6 is truly the best then all other lines should score below them.

Also, I did some really quick research and bluecoats were not winning brass consistently going into finals week. In Stanford it went Cadets, Coats, BD and in Clovis it went BD, Cadets, Coats all with paper thin spreads. Adding more corps to the mix during finals week obviously only complicated matters.

Edited August 22, 2007 by Richard