1988 Madison Scouts

[thirdcoast]

oops, i know this post is a devil fan/ still mad that they came in third. great debate though

i believe mr hopkins reads this and if he wants he can respond, i believe mr boo is being coi, we all know what happened after semis believe it or not he had something to do with it. If you were really there you must know this.

I think we here in madison called it a hissy fit

[Michael Boo]

i believe mr hopkins reads this and if he wants he can respond, i believe mr boo is being coi, we all know what happened after semis believe it or not he had something to do with it. If you were really there you must know this...

I'm not being coy and I was in Kansas City. I do not know that. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Gene Bennett3rd]

Anyone who was REALLY there would remember...

They announced 25-13 scores....

They had 2 large envelopes...the bottom 6 drew first, then the top six.

George reached his hand in the envelope and grabbed a large card that read "12". Total luck that last years winner went on last...

[Michael Boo]

I just got a PM from someone who said they were at DCI South that year and were informed by a top-12 director that a move was underway for the champion from the previous year to not go on last, and a director concerned about not being on television was behind it. Which in itself...if totally true...would disprove the entire notion of what some believe transpired. DCI South was on August 5, 1989. DCI World Finals was two full weeks later, August 19. So, if a move was truly underway back then, it would disprove the the decision was undertaken because it was known for certain that one corps wouldn't be on television. Two weeks out, that would be mere speculation at best.

And that's why I don't buy into conspiracy theories.

[madscout96]

I just got a PM from someone who said they were at DCI South that year and were informed by a top-12 director that a move was underway for the champion from the previous year to not go on last, and a director concerned about not being on television was behind it. Which in itself...if totally true...would disprove the entire notion of what some believe transpired. DCI South was on August 5, 1989. DCI World Finals was two full weeks later, August 19. So, if a move was truly underway back then, it would disprove the the decision was undertaken because it was known for certain that one corps wouldn't be on television. Two weeks out, that would be mere speculation at best.

And that's why I don't buy into conspiracy theories.

I don't think this disproves anything completely. Maybe the move was underway because they were anticipating a finish below 5th place, and had to get the ball rolling on it early. But what you've just said confirms what I had heard before: that DCI did make this change during the season, and it was not something that the BOD voted on in the offseason. Now I'm wondering why they decided to make such a change so suddenly? They couldn't wait until the offseason and impliment it for 1990? Did the directors all give their approval on this in the middle of the season? Why were the rules changed in the middle of the game???

[Liam]

Anyone who was REALLY there would remember...

They announced 25-13 scores....

They had 2 large envelopes...the bottom 6 drew first, then the top six.

George reached his hand in the envelope and grabbed a large card that read "12". Total luck that last years winner went on last...

.... And what about this .....

This implies that the rule was changed the year before -- in 1988 -- and that Cadets only went on last by luck of the draw (coincedence).

Now I'm seriously confused and unfortunately my memories of that time are extremely muddled.

Someone, please, definitively clear the fog for me !!!!!

[Michael Boo]

I don't think this disproves anything completely. Maybe the move was underway because they were anticipating a finish below 5th place, and had to get the ball rolling on it early. But what you've just said confirms what I had heard before: that DCI did make this change during the season, and it was not something that the BOD voted on in the offseason. Now I'm wondering why they decided to make such a change so suddenly? They couldn't wait until the offseason and impliment it for 1990? Did the directors all give their approval on this in the middle of the season? Why were the rules changed in the middle of the game???

Please read again what I wrote. I stated the IF that was accurate, it would disprove that it was something that developed at the end of the season when it was CERTAIN said corps wouldn't be on television, as there would be no way to be sure of that two weeks out...again, if that WAS the case.

[madscout96]

Please read again what I wrote. I stated the IF that was accurate, it would disprove that it was something that developed at the end of the season when it was CERTAIN said corps wouldn't be on television, as there would be no way to be sure of that two weeks out...again, if that WAS the case.

I KNOW that we've been talking about if's here. But let's continue to suppose that what you heard is true, for the sake of discussion.

Anyway, I checked 1989 on corpsreps.com. First of all, Neither Scouts nor Cadets were at DCI South. They were both at Allentown. So it might have been a different director that discussed it. Maybe. But if there was such a discussion on August 5th, what could have brought it about? I guess that's what you're asking. How could they know that early that a certain corps might not get on TV? Well there wasn't any way to know for sure. But you could start worrying about it. Especially after what happened at DCI-Mid America:

Bloomington, IN, 7-29-89

1 Star of Indiana 89.500

2 Blue Devils 89.400

3 Cavaliers 89.200

4 Cadets of Bergen County 89.000

5 Bluecoats 82.600

6 Suncoast Sound 76.400

7 Blue Knights 70.600

8 Florida Wave 69.800

9 Troopers 65.600

10 Colts 64.400

11 Glassmen 57.200

12 Spartans (WA) 49.500

Cadets finish in 4th place, without Phantom, SCV, or Madison even there! Yes it's a slim margin, and yes there are still a few weeks to go, but can't you see why this would be a concern to a director who wants to make sure his corps gets to go on late enough on Finals to get on TV? And if you check Madison's scores up to this point, they're not exactly world beaters from a scoring standpoint, especially for a defending champ. If you get rid of the "defending champ always goes on last at finals" rule, you increase the chances for a bubble team (like the Cadets) to get into the broadcast.

I know it's not difinitive proof of a conspiracy, but then again there isn't difinitive proof for the lack of one either.

But my question is still unanswered: Did they decide to make this change in the middle of the season, and not in the offseason? How many directors approved it? Did any approve it? Did they all approve it? Why change the rules in the middle of the game? Conspiracy or no conspiracy, why was it done this way??

[Liam]

But my question is still unanswered: Did they decide to make this change in the middle of the season, and not in the offseason? How many directors approved it? Did any approve it? Did they all approve it? Why change the rules in the middle of the game? Conspiracy or no conspiracy, why was it done this way??

Yes, all of these questions -- plus can someone please answer DEFINITIVELY about the assertion a couple of posts up that the rule was actually changed the year before, and the Cadets only went on last in 1988 due to luck of the draw?

[vferrera]

I like the 3rd poll option, saying they got the "right draw" as if it were luck. Any other year they would have gone on next to last based on semifinals. But since that year had a random drawing for the top 5, they are seen as the beneficiaries of good fortune. Yes, their performance slot was based on chance, but it would have been the same either way. It's not like they got something they didn't earn.

It reminds of a line from Monty Python - "would Einstein have discovered the theory of relativity if he hadn't by pure chance spent years working on it?"

The only luck that night was BD's bad luck to go on 8th instead of 10th. That, and doing a flat show. But I guess they were forced to do that due to the bad slot.

Madison owned the field that night, pure and simple.