Frankly

[MikeD]

I wasn't trying to just jump on Lancerlady alone. Goodness knows it goes both ways. People are indeed disrespectful of older drum corps far too often, and I don't blame anybody for getting upset when they're told to "just stop whining" or whatever. It's not whining from most people, it's real criticism that should be heard, IMO.

Why should a current or recent or future MM accept such talk from people who should know better?

[MikeD]

BozzlyB, i see from your listing of the years you marched that we are from the same generation of marching members. I think you know it wasn't like this 20 years ago. sure, there were dinosaurs ragging on 3 valve horns, and telling "in my day..." stories, but there wasn't this type of anger, people didn't talk about being betrayed by the board of directors, walking away from the activity, withholding funds. this is different, a lot different, and whether you agree with the complainers or disagree you should be able to step back and acknowledge, rationally, that whatever the cause the anger itself is bad for the activity. as i mentioned in another thread, there is nothing more valuable in the business world than a paying customer. and no business can afford to get into an angry, us vs. them confrontational mode with a large segment of its customer base without facing serious consequenses. and i fear these consequenses aren't vague future maybe less people will show up type threats, but real, tangible, and present day. i don't think that you can seperate fanbase disillusionment from the fact that an activity that has managed to fund and successfully present a national television broadcast for decades has cancelled that broadcast for lack of funding. whether you are pro electronics or anti doesn't matter. the fact is, this activity needs to do a better job of engaging and growing its fanbase or it will not remain viable.

People were whining that drum corp died back in 71 merely over the idea of themed shows by the Scouts, Cadets and Cavies. Bayonne coming out with the banana unis totally freaked out some of the legacy fans in 76, who said that it was just NOT drum corps.

[dbg]

True, but to be blunt, I've seen band and don't like it. I like the differences that existed between the two that made drum corps unique. That distinct character is eroding with every rules congress. I have seen amped voice - I even tought a corps that used it, and while I love that corps and those kids, I hate amped voice! So that was like breaking my arm, which I've already done and don't like. DCI is now asking me to break my leg and see if it's any better. Sorry - one experimental fracture was enough!

Can you tell I like analogy and metaphor?

The main difference that I have always enjoyed most between DCI drum corps and marching band was the quality level. And no matter what difference in instrument usage the difference of performance level will still be higher in drum corps than in marching band. It is that difference that will still attract kids to march DCI.

[HoltonH178]

The point I was making was the disrespect shown by the youth who don't understand why the "old guard" (as you put it) are supposed to just sit up and take this crap and not voice our displeasure. Like we're all supposed to just sit around and act like it's okay.

I mean the "old guard" sentiment with as much respect and admiration as possible, so that you know.

I read a post here one day that I felt was a great sentiment about a certain drum corps--that they were 50% tradition and 50% innovation. I think this belief is reflected in almost every corps on the field these days to some extent. DCI has a long tradition of innovation, and each generation of the activity should be free to seek this out in its own right--whatever that may be. The other 50% of tradition are the same bus songs BAC still sings about your corps (yeah I know a thing or two about my history, thanks), the same tour that the kids go on every summer, and the outstanding education in music and in life they receive. Compared to that, whatever happens on the field seems utterly insignificant to me.

Disrespect goes both ways. When people learn how to show some respect and at least TRY to understand the upset alumni then maybe we can have a healthy discussion.

We've already been through this with amps and see what they did with that?

They haven't even mastered the art of mixing a sound board, and they want to add a frickn rock n roll band?

I am more empathetic than you may think. However, I believe the direction of the activity to be far more beneficial to our future, maybe even survival as an activity, than I do the validity these sentiments.

EDIT: Funny, I used the word "sentiment" three (now four) times. Oh well. It's late.

Edited January 29, 2008 by HoltonH178

[mad_scotty]

People were whining that drum corp died back in 71 merely over the idea of themed shows by the Scouts, Cadets and Cavies. Bayonne coming out with the banana unis totally freaked out some of the legacy fans in 76, who said that it was just NOT drum corps.

it wasn't the hyperbole and the "killing the activity" stuff i was talking about, but the anger, and the confrontational stance i'm seeing now that i don't recall back then. sure, the old timers i ran into were more than willing to let me know what we were doing wrong, and why it was better in the "good old days of REAL drum corps", but it wasn't like this. they talked smack, yeah, but didn't get as personal and aggressive as some of the posts here, on both sides of the changes issue. honestly, look at the last several posts you've put up on this thread. thats what i'm talking about, that sort of angry, in your face, confrontational nonsense. i don't remember that from back in the day, and i don't care what "side" you're picking, it's no good. not for the activity, not for the people in it, active and alumni, and not for you.

[kusankusho]

Not if the poll is taken of, say, KKK members.

Mike - where I generally disagree with you, your posts usually at least show some intelligent thought went into their construction. I feel you are posting now just to be contrary. The last few posts in this thread have not made a scrap of sense. If you have nothing useful to say, you don't have to post, you know.....

[kusankusho]

The main difference that I have always enjoyed most between DCI drum corps and marching band was the quality level. And no matter what difference in instrument usage the difference of performance level will still be higher in drum corps than in marching band. It is that difference that will still attract kids to march DCI.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not so sure. If they look at electronics and narration and think "cheesy" - it won't matter how well it's done.

Well executed cheese is still cheese.

[rayfallon]

I do find something interesting about this thread though...

While I'm not crazy about all the beatings that we older folks are taking (remember young'ns, we haven't been criticizing YOU, or even electronic instruments, just putting electronic instruments on the field, whereas some of the posts have been pretty harsh toward us "dinosaurs"), I guess it never occurred to me that anyone (besides maybe George Hopkins and for some unfathomable reason Mike Davis) actually WANTED this stuff on the field.

I guess I always thought that my four kids (all aged out) and the opinions of the hundreds of kids I worked with in the activity were representative of "young" drum corps members. But it kind of makes sense that I didn't get it, as my kids were almost literally raised in the activity the way it was, and the last several years I taught were with Boston when they were still from Boston, which was a pretty hard core old school drum corps.

So I guess (as I sort of suspected without knowing why) that this is really the fork in the road where I really and truly separate from the activity. If it were only the evil idea of one corps director, or even many, I would fight it... but if the kids themselves are actually into this (I hope it's for reasons other than they were told it's a good idea by their staff or corps director) then I guess it's like when folks stopped being into the activity when we put marching tuned percussion out there, and more got off when we grounded the stuff in the "pit", and more got off when we put a third valve on (never really could figure that out - still the same horn, but with more notes!!!), or when we keyed them in Bb, etc. etc. etc.

I would like to point out though (having said all that) that there is a truly fundamental difference between grounded acoustical percussion, more valves, different keys, and electronics. For instance, the ballsiest of old school drum corps, the Madison Scouts, used bells on the field in 1959, so I never saw the "pit" as abandoning our roots. I could live with a grand piano on the field... it's an acoustic percussion instrument, although I'd like to see them carry it on a harness for a couple of years before putting it in the pit. But a synthesizer, for me, is a horse of a different color, and the most fundamental change, in my opinion, that we've ever tried to sell as evolution. After this one, boys and girls, there really is no reason to hesitate to put anything else (read clarinet, flute, sax, oboe - yikes - etc.) on the field.

Wouldn't be surprised if that's not what all of this is actually about.

[Martybucs]

I do find something interesting about this thread though...

While I'm not crazy about all the beatings that we older folks are taking (remember young'ns, we haven't been criticizing YOU, or even electronic instruments, just putting electronic instruments on the field, whereas some of the posts have been pretty harsh toward us "dinosaurs"), I guess it never occurred to me that anyone (besides maybe George Hopkins and for some unfathomable reason Mike Davis) actually WANTED this stuff on the field.

I guess I always thought that my four kids (all aged out) and the opinions of the hundreds of kids I worked with in the activity were representative of "young" drum corps members. But it kind of makes sense that I didn't get it, as my kids were almost literally raised in the activity the way it was, and the last several years I taught were with Boston when they were still from Boston, which was a pretty hard core old school drum corps.

So I guess (as I sort of suspected without knowing why) that this is really the fork in the road where I really and truly separate from the activity. If it were only the evil idea of one corps director, or even many, I would fight it... but if the kids themselves are actually into this (I hope it's for reasons other than they were told it's a good idea by their staff or corps director) then I guess it's like when folks stopped being into the activity when we put marching tuned percussion out there, and more got off when we grounded the stuff in the "pit", and more got off when we put a third valve on (never really could figure that out - still the same horn, but with more notes!!!), or when we keyed them in Bb, etc. etc. etc.

I would like to point out though (having said all that) that there is a truly fundamental difference between grounded acoustical percussion, more valves, different keys, and electronics. For instance, the ballsiest of old school drum corps, the Madison Scouts, used bells on the field in 1959, so I never saw the "pit" as abandoning our roots. I could live with a grand piano on the field... it's an acoustic percussion instrument, although I'd like to see them carry it on a harness for a couple of years before putting it in the pit. But a synthesizer, for me, is a horse of a different color, and the most fundamental change, in my opinion, that we've ever tried to sell as evolution. After this one, boys and girls, there really is no reason to hesitate to put anything else (read clarinet, flute, sax, oboe - yikes - etc.) on the field.

Wouldn't be surprised if that's not what all of this is actually about.

wow. Well said. You just saved me a lot of time.

Maybe I'll get some work done today.

[dckid80]

I'm not sure I have the energy for this fight anymore...

One question though, why mic the horns when you could just use G bugles instead?