Lip Trills

[vferrera]

I've found that my jaw does move a little bit, but for me, the tongue definitely drives things. The way I teach lips trills to students is by having them whistle the trills, then recreating what the back of the tongue does while they're playing. Here's a silly little video I recorded a while back...you can see my jaw move.

I like the eyebrow action. that's key.

[goldingna]

I like the eyebrow action. that's key.

Thanks....I forgot to mention the importance of the eyebrows!

[bedford]

So I was listening to some old BD recordings and one of them had this amazing baritone soloist, so I was wondering if anyone new of a good way to build lip trills as a baritone player, I would assume it's essentially the same as on trumpet but I've never really been taught any technique on this, so any suggestions?

What year of BD

[jdostie]

That's exactly what I did J.....only as a trumpet player I used the pitches A (above the staff) to C#. For some (very strange)reason, I found these 2 notes to be closest to each other, and easier to slur, thus making it easier for me to perfect my lip trills.

(And before I hear any wise cracks from you........yes....I did this while lying in my lounge chair!!!) LOL

My Arban's says "trilling by means of the lips is only desireable for intervals whose harmonics lie a second apart . . . and only if the [indicated in the book] fingerings are used; otherwise trills in thirds will result and these are both annoying and objectionable." I'm not sure that this classifies as a rule, or Arban's opinion (more likely). The A to C# you are mentioning here is [two full steps] - but I think the reason for the ease of playing this interval has more to do with the horns harmonics and "slotting" than to do with the perfect second - though I could be wrong.

I am still working on getting a good/consistent trill going again, working through the Arban's exercises - clearly some intervals and fingerings are easier than others that appear to be the same distance apart. But I can tell you that I remember when I was learning to trill years ago - I could trill on a mellophone easier than a soprano. For me, back then, the preferred learning interval was B above the staff to high Eb, [also two full steps].

Most of the exercises are from G in the staff to G above the staff; I suspect it's easier to trill at higher intervals (if you have the range/endurance to spend a lot of time up there) - but also suspect that working at the lower intervals will be better for my technique. (My reasoning for this is that even though the harmonic is still a second apart, the interval is smaller at higher pitches - keep halving the distance for an octave even though the harmonic is still an eight apart - could be faulty reasoning). Anyway, if you are interested in the exercises check out "Arbans Complete Conservatory Method" pages 42-44.

--- Edit to remove references to perfect seconds lest I confuse anyone.

Edited April 18, 2008 by jdostie

[Martybucs]

My Arban's says "trilling by means of the lips is only desireable for intervals whose harmonics lie a second apart . . . and only if the [indicated in the book] fingerings are used; otherwise trills in thirds will result and these are both annoying and objectionable." I'm not sure that this classifies as a rule, or Arban's opinion (more likely). The A to C# you are mentioning here is a perfect second - but I think the reason for the ease of playing this interval has more to do with the horns harmonics and "slotting" than to do with the perfect second - though I could be wrong.

I am still working on getting a good/consistent trill going again, working through the Arban's exercises - clearly some intervals and fingerings are easier than others that appear to be the same distance apart. But I can tell you that I remember when I was learning to trill years ago - I could trill on a mellophone easier than a soprano. For me, back then, the preferred learning interval was B above the staff to high Eb, also a perfect second.

Most of the exercises are from G in the staff to G above the staff; I suspect it's easier to trill at higher intervals (if you have the range/endurance to spend a lot of time up there) - but also suspect that working at the lower intervals will be better for my technique. (My reasoning for this is that even though the harmonic is still a second apart, the interval is smaller at higher pitches - keep halving the distance for an octave even though the harmonic is still an eight apart - could be faulty reasoning). Anyway, if you are interested in the exercises check out "Arbans Complete Conservatory Method" pages 42-44.

You have to consider the time frame in which this was written, over one hundred years ago. Most music was classical in nature, even most popular tunes.

I think you may be thinking of the lip trill as used as a "jazz" effect or embellishment. In the classical genre, you want the trill to be as distinct, separated, as fast and clean as possible and if it's a baroque piece you always start on the upper note of the trill to be authentic.

The trill you would hear in Drum corps is more of the "jazz" style which is more like a controlled shake and more of an informal sound.

By all means, practice the Arban's, but if you came across a trill marked in a jazz or drum corps piece and executed as in the Arban book, you might stop everyone dead and have them scratching their heads.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Martybucs

[jdostie]

You have to consider the time frame in which this was written, over one hundred years ago. Most music was classical in nature, even most popular tunes.

I think you may be thinking of the lip trill as used as a "jazz" effect or embellishment. In the classical genre, you want the trill to be as distinct, separated, as fast and clean as possible and if it's a baroque piece you always start on the upper note of the trill to be authentic.

The trill you would hear in Drum corps is more of the "jazz" style which is more like a controlled shake and more of an informal sound.

By all means, practice the Arban's, but if you came across a trill marked in a jazz or drum corps piece and executed as in the Arban book, you might stop everyone dead and have them scratching their heads.

True enough, I understand what you are saying - and that's what I first learned a trill to be. . . I never had a private teacher as a kid, so never learned the formal (am just now learning it); it was when I was at my friends house, and he was attempting a trill (combination of tongue action and rocking his trumpet) that I first thought "hey that's cool, I'm going to learn how to do that." So I just set out to learn how to do it.

Now I'm taking a more formal/classical approach to learning - with a teacher - but not so formal as to throw out the jazz influences - just formal enough to make sure I fix problems I had when I was playing before, and become a better player (eventually) than I was back then. For trills my teacher's comments were "this is the one thing where I don't want you to concentrate on tone" and finding the center of the note - here he wants me to fall just short of reaching the upper note, and being slightly above toe lower note - effectively keeping the horn from "slotting" on the harmonic.

A more classical trill - from Drum Corps history would be the solo from Fiddler on the Roof - just before the bottle dance (SCV) I think 73/74?

I want to be able to do both of course . . .

[Martybucs]

True enough, I understand what you are saying - and that's what I first learned a trill to be. . . I never had a private teacher as a kid, so never learned the formal (am just now learning it); it was when I was at my friends house, and he was attempting a trill (combination of tongue action and rocking his trumpet) that I first thought "hey that's cool, I'm going to learn how to do that." So I just set out to learn how to do it.

Now I'm taking a more formal/classical approach to learning - with a teacher - but not so formal as to throw out the jazz influences - just formal enough to make sure I fix problems I had when I was playing before, and become a better player (eventually) than I was back then. For trills my teacher's comments were "this is the one thing where I don't want you to concentrate on tone" and finding the center of the note - here he wants me to fall just short of reaching the upper note, and being slightly above toe lower note - effectively keeping the horn from "slotting" on the harmonic.

A more classical trill - from Drum Corps history would be the solo from Fiddler on the Roof - just before the bottle dance (SCV) I think 73/74?

I want to be able to do both of course . . .

I never had any trumpet lessons either, but if you're diligent you can learn almost anything on your own. You may make mistakes, but even with a teacher nothing is guarenteed.

The important thing is that you enjoy what you're doing. Sounds like you're having fun and that's cool.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Martybucs

[HornsUp]

A little clarification on the music theory:

There is no such interval as a perfect second. The only perfect intervals are the fourth, fifth, and octave.

The interval A - C# is a major third.

The interval B - Eb, technically, is a diminished fourth.

[jdostie]

A little clarification on the music theory:

There is no such interval as a perfect second. The only perfect intervals are the fourth, fifth, and octave.

The interval A - C# is a major third.

The interval B - Eb, technically, is a diminished fourth.

Oops, I see it now. I was counting "steps" back to basic theory time for me.

Edited April 18, 2008 by jdostie

[Drew Wilkie]

A good way to differentiate between a lip trill, and a shake-

A lip trill is done with the tongue and the lips, working together. Motion of the horn (hand) isn't used to create the trill. With the exception of the upper register (where partials are much closer together, and can be played with many alternate fingerings), lip trills happen in the stave. They occur between notes of the same harmonic structure (fingering). Within the structure, most lip trills occur at major or minor third intervals (C to E, E to G, C# to E, B to D#, etc). Listen to baroque or natural trumpet players...in most recordings, there are pristine examples of true lip trills. Lip trills are inherently more elegant than shakes.

Conversely, a shake is done in conjunction with horn (hand) motion, and the tongue and lips. The horn is rocked back and forth with the hand, while the lips and tongue work like a lip trill. It usually occurs at a much wider and undefined interval, can be executed at any speed, and is something that is used in the commercial/jazz idiom...the dirtier the better. You won't find a shake in Mahler or Beethoven.

"But Drew, these aren't the only ways for each to be executed!!"

While that is definitely true, these are the ways that produce the most "characteristic" sound, in my humble opinion.