A technical question about the sound of G vs Bb horns

[jdostie]

Please see http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/131/my-bug...html#post344694

Is a G bugle closer to a cornet, and if the summation below is accurate, why didn't DCI go to Cornet and request conical Bb instruments?

I have read some comments about resale value of horns being an important factor, but I wonder about that because unless the plan is to cycle through horns every few years - something that's been done lately anyway because of rule changes - why bother with resale value. I am under the assumption that a more logical reason is the expense of transposing music to the key of G, and also the complaint of players going back and forth between instruments - perhaps having difficulty with the pitch change. This would make it more "user friendly" or more attractive, whatever to the public they are trying to attract as participants.

If the assumption is correct, would not a conical bore address both situations - because here is another assumption, resale value on horns would go up because there would be more options of voice - a warmer/darker sound available - that players might like to have at their disposal.

Someone with a better understanding of bugle construction versus trumpet construction should chime in here to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that because the bugles are conical versus the trumpet being cylindrical makes the difference in sound that you're referring to. Here's where I may also be wrong, but I'm going to say it anyway: I think it's a good bit easier to "overblow" a trumpet than it is a bugle, and therefore much easier to play with control at higher volumes. I'm saying this based on my experience with the two horn types, but again... I have very limited understanding of the construction and it's affect on the physics of sound production, etc. It feels like the higher back pressure on the trumpet makes it harder to play as loud as you would on a bugle and maintain control. Or maybe bugles just sound good to me when you're overblowing them!!! :-p

Hmm: From Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornet

Unlike the trumpet, which has a cylindrical bore up until the bell section, the tubing of the cornet has a mostly conical bore, starting very narrow at the mouthpiece and gradually widening towards the bell. The conical bore of the cornet is primarily responsible for its characteristic warm, mellow tone, which can be distinguished from the more penetrating sound of the trumpet. The conical bore of the cornet also makes it more agile than the trumpet when playing fast passages, but correct pitching is often less assured. The cornet is often preferred for young beginners as it is easier to hold, with its centre of gravity much closer to the player.

Of course, if this assessment is wrong, well, then it's wrong, and the whole question goes out the window.

[Dave]

This is a common misconception about G bugles, especially since if you look up the technical definition of a bugle, bugles are generally conical. However, the only thing that's "bugle" about what we play on is the name itself. The horns generally have similar dimensions to their Bb counterparts, with the exception of extra tubing at certain points to lower the pitch--extra cylindrical tubing at that, which means that the average G bugle is actually more cylindrical than its Bb counterpart. By and large, that sort of thing doesn't have anything to do with any real or perceived sound or volume difference between the two.

[Martybucs]

Cornets have a tapered lead pipe that gets larger as it approaches the valve section. If you look at a cornet mouthpiece you'll notice the shank is much smaller than a trumpet mouthpiece.

If you look at a drum corps bugle from the last 60 years or more, you can see the lead pipe is cylindrical and it uses a trumpet mouthpiece.

There have been exhaustive debates on here and other places about the definition of a bugle. It's a pointless argument, in my opinion, because they are all part of the brass family and produce a similar sound in a similar fashion.

However, some people are adamant, (anal?), about what can be called a "true" bugle.

The 3 valve G DEG bugle does have a cornet look to it, by the way the pipes are wrapped in a cornet fashion.

To me, it doesn't matter, and if enough people start posting here, you will soon get more info and opinion that you ever wanted from such a simple question.

[davidp]

It seems to me that a "bugle" in Bb would be relatively easy to manufacture. Didn't Getzen make Bb bugles back in the day, that were similar to G's (I saw an old ad which I saved)? Couldn't the same characteristics of what has been known as a bugle be given to a horn in Bb, and still be considered as a bugle? Or is that not really the point? Would a "standard" cornet (no shepherd's crook) suffice as being "bugle-y," or perhaps augmented to accept a trumpet mouthpiece? Also, aren't most Bb marching horns based on their bugle (G) counterparts, so that the only real difference is the key? I'm just asking out of curiousity; my knowledge of horn construction and characteristics would fit in a Barbie glass .

[wvu80]

This is a common misconception about G bugles, especially since if you look up the technical definition of a bugle, bugles are generally conical. However, the only thing that's "bugle" about what we play on is the name itself. The horns generally have similar dimensions to their Bb counterparts, with the exception of extra tubing at certain points to lower the pitch--extra cylindrical tubing at that, which means that the average G bugle is actually more cylindrical than its Bb counterpart. By and large, that sort of thing doesn't have anything to do with any real or perceived sound or volume difference between the two.

As the owner of several G bugles, sops, mellos, frenchie, alto, all two-valve, I was going to add my expertise to the mix. But after reading Big Dog's post, there is nothing I could add. He got it 100% right.

He just talks in less words than me.

For a picture of my Deg Dynasty II Alto, see Olds valve/rotor bugle topic, post #19.

Edited February 24, 2008 by wvu80

[HornsUp]

(reposted from a similar topic in another forum here)

What is a bugle? This debate has been raging here, and on RAMD, for the better part of a decade. We have been rehashing the same arguments ad nauseum.

Put away your Funk & Wagnalls.

The authority, my friends, is the rulebook.

The "Bluebook". So called because whether it came from the American Legion, DCA, or DCI it traditionally had a blue cover.

And the definition of a bugle, through at least five decades, always started like this:

"By the term bugle as used herein is meant a straight, bell-front instrument, pitched in G."

The rest of the paragraph was modified over the years to reflect the configuration and keying of the valves and slides.

The modern bluebooks now define the term "brass" and have removed the key of G restriction. Therefore we no longer have any bugles.

[jdostie]

Cornets have a tapered lead pipe that gets larger as it approaches the valve section. If you look at a cornet mouthpiece you'll notice the shank is much smaller than a trumpet mouthpiece.

If you look at a drum corps bugle from the last 60 years or more, you can see the lead pipe is cylindrical and it uses a trumpet mouthpiece.

There have been exhaustive debates on here and other places about the definition of a bugle. It's a pointless argument, in my opinion, because they are all part of the brass family and produce a similar sound in a similar fashion.

However, some people are adamant, (anal?), about what can be called a "true" bugle.

The 3 valve G DEG bugle does have a cornet look to it, by the way the pipes are wrapped in a cornet fashion.

To me, it doesn't matter, and if enough people start posting here, you will soon get more info and opinion that you ever wanted from such a simple question.

I didn't mean to stir that up, only a question about cause/solution for the real or perceived change in sound. This because I don't see a change in key causing any such thing - if you transpose the notes, it should be the same - unless the "voice" (if that's properly applied here) is different. Not a debate over which is better, or more "pure." There are too many variations over years for that. I only meant to get a technical understanding - this is really a question about sound-wave and music theory.

[Martybucs]

I didn't mean to stir that up, only a question about cause/solution for the real or perceived change in sound. This because I don't see a change in key causing any such thing - if you transpose the notes, it should be the same - unless the "voice" (if that's properly applied here) is different. Not a debate over which is better, or more "pure." There are too many variations over years for that. I only meant to get a technical understanding - this is really a question about sound-wave and music theory.

Are you referring to the timbre of the instruments? In other words, the distinct sound or tone of the horns. That can differ from many different causes.

First, indidviduals, because of their playing style, can sound completely different on the exact same instrument.

Second, mouthpiece choice plays a great part in determining the color of the sound.

Third, temperature can change the sound.

Fourth, instrument platings can color the sound of a horn.

That's just four things that can lead to the difference in sound or timbre. I'm sure you know all that, but the question you ask doesn't have one answer, IMO.

There is debate over whether a G hornline is louder than a Bb hornline and hearing one type of hornline right after the other, as I have had the chance, I would say the two DCI hornlines I heard in this fashion showed the G hornline seemed to be louder or project better

However, the difference isn't that great and I think if you saw a show where every corps was using Bb and F horns, it would be plenty loud enough and would sound just like drum and bugle corps. It does to me.

Having said that, if you took one player and had them play a melody on a G bugle and then the same melody, using the same pitch, on a Bb trumpet, (but you couldn't see them, only hear them), I think you would notice a difference. However, I think guessing which is which, would be just that...a guess.

[vferrera]

You really can't make general statements about entire classes of horns. You have to compare them head-to-head. For example, I have a DEG dynasty 3V sop and a Bach strad model 37 trumpet. The Dynasty has a warm, open, dark tone whereas the Bach has a more compact and sometimes strident sound. I don't think this has much to do with the shape of the bore since they both take the same mouthpiece. But the Dynasty has a much larger bell with a different taper than the Bach. I think the bell size/shape accounts for most of the difference in sound.

I recently compared a B&S Challenger II with a lightweight bell to a bunch of other horns. The Challenger was much more responsive and open-sounding, and you could literally feel the resonance. The other horns sounded "tight" and nasally, by comparison.

Among trumpet makers, Schilke offers a wide range of bell shapes and materials. The Schilke B5 has a bigger bell than a Bach 37 and also has a "bigger" and less edgy sound. I'm guessing that a line of Schilke B5's would sound much more "bugle-like" than a line of Yamaha 8335's. (The Yamaha seems to me closer to a Bach 37 even though I understand it copied the Schilke design.)

As far as I know, cornets, flugels, piccolo and soprano trumpets are all legal in DCI. If you listen to a traditional British-style brass band, the upper choir has a much richer sound than your typical DCI trumpet line. I think it would make a lot of sense for DCI corps to experiment more with mixing up the small bore instrumentation. But based on co.mments I've heard from brass staffers, it seems like the trend in DCI is for all hornlines to sound more or less the same

[strutta]

When do we all just switch to pocket trumpets and kazoos?