It's Been A While....

[jwillis35]

Yep-- Section 3, Row V - seat 27.

Unless of course I am too "out of touch."

Hey Victorcoly,

Look for me. I am in Section 3, row W, seat 26. Hope to chat with you some before or after the show.

JW

[LAMystreaux]

Really? Hmmmm.... Thanks for allowing me the freedom to express my opinion. As for "out of touch,".. Well let's leave it that unless you know my history and SUPPORT OF the activity -- to include SUPPORTING it today, then you might re-phrase.

Anyway -- I truly appeciate the "differences" of opinion, and I will enjoy finals week next week despite my being "out of touch."

I am assuming you mean support as in financial/time, correct? While that is wonderful if that is what you are doing, it does not make you in touch with the state of the activity. Sorry, much of your op is just not based in fact and is opposite of what many have experienced.

[victorcoly]

I am assuming you mean support as in financial/time, correct? While that is wonderful if that is what you are doing, it does not make you in touch with the state of the activity. Sorry, much of your op is just not based in fact and is opposite of what many have experienced.

Yep -- support it financially in the following ways:

1) Donate to various corps

2). Attend at least 3 to 4 shows per summer, to include finals this year (as well as finals in 2005, 2004, 2000, 1998, 1996, 1993, 1991, 1990, 1989, 1987......................)

So I have experienced what "many have," and I do like many aspects of what is going on today. However I can have an opinion (just like you do!), and I can have issue with some of what is (and is not) going on as many others have as well!

Again -- your thoughts and opinions are appreciated, but the bottom line is we all love the activity, and want to see it continue on strong for years to come!

[LAMystreaux]

Yep -- support it financially in the following ways:

1) Donate to various corps

2). Attend at least 3 to 4 shows per summer, to include finals this year (as well as finals in 2005, 2004, 2000, 1998, 1996, 1993, 1991, 1990, 1989, 1987......................)

So I have experienced what "many have," and I do like many aspects of what is going on today. However I can have an opinion (just like you do!), and I can have issue with some of what is (and is not) going on as many others have as well!

Again -- your thoughts and opinions are appreciated, but the bottom line is we all love the activity, and want to see it continue on strong for years to come!

I never said you could not have an opinion; quite the opposite. Agree to disagree, and I am obvisouly not alone as I read the last several pages.

[victorcoly]

I never said you could not have an opinion; quite the opposite. Agree to disagree, and I am obvisouly not alone as I read the last several pages.

Nope... you are not alone, nor am I. Rest assured that I thought about my OP for over a week before posting it. I knew there would be many who disagree. Especially those who have only been involved/exposed/supported the activity in the last 10 to 15 years. They have not "experienced" what those involved in the activity 20 plus years have.

That is NOT to say that those who have become involved in the last 10 to 15 years are not valued, respected, or appreciated. Without them the activity would not be around and exist like it does today.

My OP brought up issues that have been on the minds of many fr a few years. Yes -- and as you said -- we can agree to disagree, but some of the items mentioned in my OP need to be addressed sooner than later. Not necessarily the items dealing with judging and the musical aspects, but the stability of the parent organization along with several corps who are on extremely shaky footing and might not survive DOES need addressed. If those items are not addressed, then we will potentially see a very limited (I am guessing a 4 week, 12 show tour to include finals!) schedule, with no more than 12 corps competing in a scaled down circuit. If that happens, you take about 1,000 spots out of the mix for young people to march (assuming an avg corps size of 100 members in all divisions combined).

Some have questioned my facts, and I will be more than happy to back them up. One that everyone can see backed up by looking online is the dwindling number of corps competing in finals in the last 15 years. Maybe a "limited" circuit tour schedule would boost those numbers, but then you're leaving out the "fan family" that likes to go to shows within a couple of hours of their home. Those supporters are who we need to keep interested!

[CavAlum]

I'm curious where you got the statistics for points 1,2, and 5?

Made them up I'm sure.

[victorcoly]

Made them up I'm sure.

Keep reading... you'll see bck up facts in the next few days!

[victorcoly]

Made them up I'm sure.

Regarding some facts (as requested) for item #1 in OP:

The following is from DCI's web site 7/16/08:

“We’re discussing how to franchise new drum corps in Canada so it’s a set formula for finances, how others can get the finances and recruit for their corps and how our kids can go out and be instructors for these new corps," said Klawitter. "We have a small business owner who is spearheading this idea. He’s talking about setting up a package that anyone can take to a city, approach the local government for Canada Council Arts Grants, show them the financial requirements and get something going in conjunction with the local governments. This program would be offered free to whoever is interested.” Lee added, “It would be a total package that we can give to potential directors to get the ball rolling and get corps started. The programs must be self-sustaining so they’re not concentrating on government money. We’re trying to iron out the details as we go, but we need to give it a try for the sustainability of drum corps in Canada.”

The above quote was from an interview Mike Boo did with Nick Klawitter and William Lee of Dutch Boy.

It is a fact -- and I will not name the person here per their request (they may post soon, so you'll know) -- that the "franchise" idea has been presented to DCI in some form or another over the years. The response the past few times has been that it's "not viable" at this time due to a consistent negative cash flow. and other financial corncerns. There are also people who are more involved in the activity than I who have said that DCI's debt is rising, and will continue to rise until some definite changes are made. My OP stated a figure of $500,000, and was followed by the statement that it was a rumor. While it may be a "rumor," no one from DCI when asked has disputed or denied that they are operating in the red. If they aren't in the red, and someone can prove it, then I have no problem what so ever apologizing publicly, and eating 5 dozen humble pies. If they are operating consistently in the red, then the activity, and more importantly the young people participating stand to get hurt and feel the effects of it more than I will.

Again -- we all want to see the activity thrive and be successful.

[hsreed]

I greatly respect that you have credentials to go along with your assertions.

Beyond moronic.

A very disappointing read. I cant believe i even finished it.

Especially the idiotic point about WANTING to "open a can of worms". Thats VERY productive.

Fortunately this guy is not out there on the road with any drum corps infecting anyone else except those who chose to read DCP in spite of this garbage.

You finished because maybe you were curious as to what he had to say. I disagree with you regarding the moronic and garbage comments.

DCI is not responsible for the economy, the price of gas, the price of food and those other things.

Nothing like taking problems that are effecting drum corps today and blaming them on DCI.

DCI controls the product of drum corps - they need to assume the blame and address the problems. Somethings are out of DCI's control, but everyone is affected by those issues, so it's pointless to blame everything on things you can't control and address the things you can control. So I agree with him, not you.

And please spare me your stories about the 7000000 drum corps that existed. Most of those folded because they were run poorly, non-competitive, couldn't recruit enough members, or because they couldn't find proper sponsorships without PAL, VFW, american legion etc.

Partially right, partially wrong. There were never 7 million drum corps, but I think the market could support at least 50 more corps right now. As with any activity, there were some management issues. Regarding recruitment, there are some people that could never be interested in the activity, there are some that, no matter what, thy would be interested in the activity. Then there are those that could be interested in the activity. I believe the largest category by a large margin it the potential group of participants. I believe, and clearly I'm not alone (I use to buy 10 tickets to every local show and a few tickets to the shows in Northern CA, but I stopped buying so many tickets as well as attending multiple shows because I couldn't find enough people interested in going), that the product is flawed.

I am bummed there isn't more drum corps out there, but those are not DCI's fault. They are most often the fault of people like this who talk a big game, and do nothing. B*tching and Moaning is not "Doing something about it".

At some point in time, you get tired of banging your head against the wall and walk away. The current drum corps product is uninteresting to many former members, so they quit supporting the activity. Very few people will stay around and fight, but at least 90% will walk away. As one of my friends in the 90% club said, "that's not my drum corps anymore", and DCI does not get any money from him.

If DCI wants to draw in more fans, combine the right components from the past (entertainment, music, attention to details affecting scoring, etc) with the right components of the current activity (drill movement-the only interesting component in drum corps these days). Drum corps is stale and boring right now, and that has nothing to do with the economy or President Bush. Continually experimenting with additions to drum corps instead of going back to the core of the activity is proving detrimental.

You only need to compare the growth of DCA with the decline of DCI as proof that it's the product, not the economy.

[Long Time Fan]

I too have been around this activity for many years...first show attended was in 1973 after I had graduated from college. So I never marched. Just as the marchers have thier own unique perspective, so have I.

Demand is the same or more today than it was back then...the real discussion is that it is different, not greater or lesser. Back then we had the tick system. We don't have it now. Why? Because, while the performer was rewarded or penalized for their perfection, the audience was not. Who could possibly check toe height and stick angle from the stands...if it was possible to check it from the stands the judges would never have been put on the field. To make the shows more rewarding to the audience, DCI decided to remove the tick emphasis and replace it with content and general effect emphasis. Audiences were rewarded. However, we lost the unpredictability of moving placements (the claimed slotting effect started). The performers feel slighted and displaced from the activity they knew.

DCI (and this term means the current corps) is constantly tweeking the judging to get the product they want. Some of it is designed to entice the audience to attend and react, part of it is to provide a medium that the creative show designers and tech staffs want to work through. If we don't like that this activity is too visual right now, blame the fact that DCI is pushing the judge panels to reward this. We get into a chicken and egg thing...judges (guided by DCI) reward what the designers want to do, the designers design what did well last year.

If we want great music with lots of notes, then don't complain to the corps, go to DCI. Shows from the 80's and 90's would not score as well if they were performed today without a single change to a note or a step. They are not in line with what is currently being recognized. I do not judge shows from one era being better than another, I realize that judging has always been a moving target. I have favorites from all eras. Including the 2000's, like SVC 2001, Cavies 2000, PR 2005 and 2006, Bluecoats 2001, and many more.

The OP has many very good points. The discussion needs to focus a little better since DCI creates this product in a changing environment. We have less corps today than years ago. Is that an effect of DCI or the environment...probably both? Our world has changed significantly over that time and the era of the local D&B corps sponsored by the local community groups is gone. They could never afford what they did years ago. They would never get away with touring like they did years ago.

The environment has changed in so many ways that we can't possibly go back to the 80's or even the 90's. It just wouldn't fit with the costs, the participants, the mediums, the staffs, and every other thing that affects what a corps is and what they have to do to stay on the field. In real life, you can't go back to the way it was, because everything around it that made it was it was has changed. You can only try to keep a representation of what it used to be. Look at the any sporting activity and see how this is true. Freshmen should not play varsity sports, pro players should not move club to club, technology should not affect the sport, human (an non-human) physical improvement should not change records. Nothing stays the same.

So I have little tolerance for arguments that say we should go back to the way it used to be. I do have great interest and tolerance for discussions on how the activity can try to capture the spirit of portions of the activity we used to love. Want better music? Push DCI to reward for more music GE with an improved definition of what this means. Want better narration and amps, get this scored, and then kill a corps for half-baked scripts, and technical execution in mics and performance. We need to shape this activity to the values we love. However we can't just go back.

I realize I have gone well beyond what the OP brought forward, but I am reacting to the many very good discussions that were added...and ignoring the many demeaning remarks made to the OP.