World Class Semifinals Discussion Thread

[byline]

Which is too bad, because personally I think there should be a judge sitting next to me all the time counting goosebumps and recording the score.

Emotionally, I agree with you. And certainly that "goosebump" factor should play a role in judging, because the fact that a corps can move an audience that much has to be worth something on the performance scale, right? (Which is part of what I always thought GE was.)

But I'm not sure it should be the entire factor in judging, or even a main part of it, and I'll explain why: Rick and I went to WGI finals not this year, but last. Aimachi, from Japan, generated the most emotional response of the evening, and one of the most emotional responses I've ever heard for any performing group. They won the bronze medal, and were thrilled to have done so, but Rick and I (and, no doubt, many others) left firmly believing in our hearts that they should have won. Fast-forward to August, when the DVDs finally arrived. Watched the top three guards many times. I still think Fantasia should have won over Pride of Cincinnati, but now I'm firmly convinced that Aimachi was properly placed. Their dazzling tricks and spellbinding emotion created a wee bit of sleight of hand, masking their (relatively) lesser demand. Aimachi tended to space out their elements, and do so in a way that worked beautifully within the program, but both Pride and Fantasia had nearly continuous demand that they nailed (I just think Fantasia nailed theirs better, but that's an old debate).

What I'm saying is that often that heightened emotion, while thrilling as a part of both the performer's and audience member's experience, can mask things that the performer is not doing as well as others who don't generate that same heightened response. So I think a judge has to be a little bit dispassionate -- brutal, even -- in his/her scoring. It's fine to get caught up in the performance, but doing so should not cloud one's judgment as to what the group is really doing. Having judged many a time, I made that mistake once (well, probably more than once, but one instance really stands out in my mind) . . . and regretted it as soon as we got to finals, when all I could do was make judges' tapes, not assign scores, because caption awards were based on prelims. I saw my mistake as clearly as the words on this page, knew beyond any doubt that I'd put the wrong guard first in that class, but there wasn't a single thing I could do about it.

Edited August 9, 2008 by byline

[The Green Cymbal]

Emotionally, I agree with you. And certainly that "goosebump" factor should play a role in judging, because the fact that a corps can move an audience that much has to be worth something on the performance scale, right? (Which is part of what I always thought GE was.)

But I'm not sure it should be the entire factor in judging, or even a main part of it, and I'll explain why: Rick and I went to WGI finals not this year, but last. Aimachi, from Japan, generated the most emotional response of the evening, and one of the most emotional responses I've ever heard for any performing group. They won the bronze medal, and were thrilled to have done so, but Rick and I (and, no doubt, many others) left firmly believing in our hearts that they should have won. Fast-forward to August, when the DVDs finally arrived. Watched the top three guards many times. I still think Fantasia should have won over Pride of Cincinnati, but now I'm firmly convinced that Aimachi was properly placed. Their dazzling tricks and spellbinding emotion created a wee bit of sleight of hand, masking their (relatively) lesser demand. Aimachi tended to space out their elements, and do so in a way that worked beautifully within the program, but both Pride and Fantasia had nearly continuous demand that they nailed (I just think Fantasia nailed theirs better, but that's an old debate).

What I'm saying is that often that heightened emotion, while thrilling as a part of both the performer's and audience member's experience, can mask things that the performer is not doing as well as others who don't generate that same heightened response. So I think a judge has to be a little bit dispassionate -- brutal, even -- in his/her scoring. It's fine to get caught up in the performance, but doing so should not cloud one's judgment as to what the group is really doing. Having judged many a time, I made that mistake once (well, probably more than once, but one instance really stands out in my mind) . . . and regretted it as soon as we got to finals, when all I could do was make judges' tapes, not assign scores, because caption awards were based on prelims. I saw my mistake as clearly as the words on this page, knew beyond any doubt that I'd put the wrong guard first in that class, but there wasn't a single thing I could do about it.

I agree with a lot of what you say and using Aimachi is a great example. However, I also think that using emotion in your show is also an element of design and GE that should be given credit. It is such an abstract quality and one that many performing groups never quite figure out how to achieve. The emotional highs and lows were clearly planned in Aimachi and are clearly planned in this years Phantom Regiment. That is really hard to do from a design standpoint. Not many groups choose to go the emotional path because it is hard to predict the true emotion that will happen and then pull off consistently. It seems that Phantom has become quite good at this but gets slammed for the more technical aspects of their visual program. I am curious to see what others think about this.

[byline]

I agree with a lot of what you say and using Aimachi is a great example. However, I also think that using emotion in your show is also an element of design and GE that should be given credit. It is such an abstract quality and one that many performing groups never quite figure out how to achieve. The emotional highs and lows were clearly planned in Aimachi and are clearly planned in this years Phantom Regiment. That is really hard to do from a design standpoint. Not many groups choose to go the emotional path because it is hard to predict the true emotion that will happen and then pull off consistently. It seems that Phantom has become quite good at this but gets slammed for the more technical aspects of their visual program. I am curious to see what others think about this.

Exactly. That's why I agree that this kind of emotional connection definitely needs to be part of the judging criteria. (It certainly was even back in my day with Bridgemen, Velvet Knights, Suncoast Sound, Santa Clara during their theatrical phase, etc.) Where it gets tricky is in how much a role it should play. And does emphasizing that emotional connection come at the expense of another corps doing a better job of nailing other more technical elements? I don't have the answer for that, but I do think it's one of those things people don't really consider when they say they "like" one group more than the next. For example, I love Madison's show, and they do a fabulous job of connecting with the audience, but I also think that, analyzing their show on a more technical level, 12th place is about right for them. As with Aimachi, I may change my mind about them -- and possibly others -- when I see the DVD, but for right now, that's my impression.

[tja273]

Just being honest... would you rather I lied?

So, you just walk up to people and say "you're old", "you're fat" or "you're ugly", right? Just being honest, right?

Sometimes it is best to just say nothing at all.

[tja273]

How in the world is me saying that I don't like a show the same thing as bashing it? Did I hurt your feelings? I'm incredibly sorry for pissing off Blue Devil nation, but the 2008 Blue Devils production is not my cup of tea. It doesn't mean I dislike the corps. It doesn't mean I wouldn't support the kids and the organization.

I marched with a corps that a lot of people did not like. But I never questioned their opinion. It was nothing more than an opinion. It wasn't a slap in the face.

My beef is mainly with the "Congrats, BD, but...". Saying what you think about the show to other people or in a review is one thing, but when you congratulate a person or a group, it should be left at just that..."Congratulations". The criticism at the end just erases the compliment. It would have been better to say nothing at all.

Think about it like your kid's first band concert. You may whisper to your wife that you don't like the arrangement or whatever, but when you see your kid at the end, you tell them "Great Job!"

Now, regarding the Freelancers.......Loved them!! I do have a little bias here as well. I had several friends march with Freelancers in the late 80's and early 90's (including my wife - 1988). I have always hoped they would find the financial means to tour again....one day.

[byline]

Think about it like your kid's first band concert. You may whisper to your wife that you don't like the arrangement or whatever, but when you see your kid at the end, you tell them "Great Job!"

My parents, both music majors, were bad about that. I realize they felt they needed to teach my sister and me to think critically about music, but you don't have to play that "constant teacher" role all the time. Sometimes "great job" really is all that's needed. But no, they had to critique how my band director did his job, the fact that they didn't like how he taught, arranged, wiggled his butt when he conducted, yada, yada, yada. That got old real fast -- especially since band was my favorite class, he my favorite teacher -- and I finally learned to just tune them out when I knew they were heading in that direction for the umpteenth time.

[Phantombari1]

only got scores and reactions texted to me...i was watching the Phils lose in 12....but from those i talked to there that know visual, they can not comprehend Phantoms visual placement and BD's visual 10's. BD good...very much so. Phantom as good...no but not that far off.

Bd is doing nothing groundbreaking visually, unless you count all the body stuff done zillions of times in WGI. Here's hoping the music side of the house has the set to pop spreads like the visual side is doing

My problem with the visual program is giving a corp the maximum score when they clearly don't deserve it. Were they tenths ahead of another corp or two. I don't think so especially if comparing them to Cavies. From a musical perspect they are not better than Phantom...Not in Brass and not in percussion. When visual out weighs other captions that should dominate the show I have a problem. This isn't synchronized swimming it's drum corp. The music can live on it's own, the drill/visual can't.

Having said that I am critical of all corps when it comes to scoring. I'm also critical of the judging community.

From a visual perspective the top three are equal with how they accomplish their visual productions. All have different angles of how they accomplish that. Saying that Cavies drill out weighs Phantoms visual performance is (I hate this word) Subjective. On the technical side of things I don't believe BD or Cavies play as much as Phantom especially while marching. Most difficult drill moves are done while not playing. If the brass and percussion scores reflected that consistently then maybe the scores would balance out. I don't see and equal amount of scoring when it comes to visual as it does with the brass and percussion scores.

I love crowns music this year but didn't throw them into the mix because I don't think their music in terms of difficulty is close to Phantoms. I put them on the same playing field as BD/Cavies. (The difficulty IMO isn't there.) Sort of like all the perfectly timed park and blow moments in those shows.

If Phantom doesn't win tonight the other corps have figured out how to manipulate the scoring better.

I'm torn on if winning is more important than pleasing the fans. The goal it seems is to win and that's how the judging community scores. If fans tire of shows that don't really reach the fans musically the judges can take responsibility for the demise of DCI.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Phantombari1

[tja273]

My parents, both music majors, were bad about that. I realize they felt they needed to teach my sister and me to think critically about music, but you don't have to play that "constant teacher" role all the time. Sometimes "great job" really is all that's needed. But no, they had to critique how my band director did his job, the fact that they didn't like how he taught, arranged, wiggled his butt when he conducted, yada, yada, yada. That got old real fast -- especially since band was my favorite class, he my favorite teacher -- and I finally learned to just tune them out when I knew they were heading in that direction for the umpteenth time.

My sympathy! Perhaps this is why you chose to take up Color Guard??

[byline]

My sympathy! Perhaps this is why you chose to take up Color Guard??

You know, honestly I'd never thought of that till now, but you could be right! I definitely knew I was never going to teach (but then, strangely enough, ended up teaching guard for 14 years). My main thing -- and uh-oh, here we veer into dangerous woodwind territory again -- was that I played clarinet but wanted to march corps. I'd tried playing a brass instrument but just never really had the aptitude for it, so my other alternative was color guard (and I was absolutely fine with that, by the way; didn't feel at all excluded because I was a woodwind player). So I chose guard, and man, was it ever a rough slog for someone who is not naturally talented for that type of movement. But I did it, learned three completely different guard styles in three different years, mastered them all reasonably well, then went on to teach and judge guard for a decade and then some. So it was all good. My parents sort of grudgingly accepted my corps involvement, did go to three shows during the years I marched, took tons of photos (for which I am forever grateful) and were pretty supportive of me and the guards I taught. So things got better over time as they spent less time in "constant teacher" mode.

[Splooie89]

Which corps has the most ageouts?

I would have to say the Cavaliers Anniversary Corps.....about 170.