DCI Judging 101

[Plan9]

So I guess I don't understand your point, then. Let's assume that it was a "homer" crowd as you say (although I don't agree -- I saw lots of folks in Cavies garb, Cadets garb, even BD garb backing this show, but for the sake of argument ....). If the judging was affected by a home crowd (i.e., winner chosen), I would expect that to show up in the visual and GE categories as you state. But Phantom won with percussion and music performance, which is what it is regardless of crowd response. My point of judges and crowd liking the same things wasn't meant to imply that Phantom got first in everything, just that overall, the mix of judges came to the same conclusion as the crowd -- not that one was dependant on the other.

I guess I'm just confused a little by your assertion that the homer crowd influenced the placements when you also state that in the areas that would logically transpire, Phantom didn't place as well as in other areas. Please help me understand your point.

Simply stated: the home town crowd was the catalyst for the "need" to have a very close competition end in the way it did. The percussion/ensemble was a convienent place to make it happen, and it did! Afterall, it was the closest silver and gold in the history of DCI. IF the "effect" of the show was so profound to the crowd then it should have been reflected in the scores but it wasn't, BD was on top until the end, any change to that would have been obvious. IT was going to come from somewhere else and it did!

One final note about DCP'ers/the home town crowd and how they take results. Not only was it stated on this board (the "r" word), but I personally know of corps members families who were concerned about what might happen in the stadium during retreat should BD win! Would it have happened? Not sure, but that was the level of hyperbole going on that night!

[Liam]

Simply stated: the home town crowd was the catalyst for the "need" to have a very close competition end in the way it did. The percussion/ensemble was a convienent place to make it happen, and it did! Afterall, it was the closest silver and gold in the history of DCI. IF the "effect" of the show was so profound to the crowd then it should have been reflected in the scores but it wasn't, BD was on top until the end, any change to that would have been obvious. IT was going to come from somewhere else and it did!

One final note about DCP'ers/the home town crowd and how they take results. Not only was it stated on this board (the "r" word), but I personally know of corps members families who were concerned about what might happen in the stadium during retreat should BD win! Would it have happened? Not sure, but that was the level of hyperbole going on that night!

Okay, I understand now. You're saying that there was a coordinated effort to make Phantom the champs and the scores were manipulated in a way to achieve this without making it seem so. Is that right? I don't agree but at least I understand your point now.

One point, though about the effect of the show being so profound -- "Effect" is a nebulous term. Often the "Effect" that the crowd drools over isn't the same definition of "effect" that the judges reward (many Scouts examples come to mind here ). I guess what I'm trying to say (not very well, obviously), is that to me this was a year where the crowd was moved by a show for certain reasons, and the judges were moved by the show for different reasons and maybe not in the exact same mix. But the combination of what the crowd liked added up to the same conclusion as the combination of what the judges liked. I understand that you don't agree with this assessment (too convenient, maybe?) , just my take ...

On your last point ... I think "riot" is a relative term ... the kind of riot that a drum corps crowd is capable of I think falls way, way short of the South Central LA kind, so I wasn't too worried about that. I did think about what the reaction might be, though, and said to my wife during the break that I hoped too many people didn't boo the results if BD won. Even though everyone would know that they were "technically" booing in support of Phantom, it still would have been a sh***y thing to do to BD.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Liam

[Plan9]

Okay, I understand now. You're saying that there was a coordinated effort to make Phantom the champs and the scores were manipulated in a way to achieve this without making it seem so. Is that right? I don't agree but at least I understand your point now.

One point, though about the effect of the show being so profound -- "Effect" is a nebulous term. Often the "Effect" that the crowd drools over isn't the same definition of "effect" that the judges reward (many Scouts examples come to mind here ). I guess what I'm trying to say (not very well, obviously), is that to me this was a year where the crowd was moved by a show for certain reasons, and the judges were moved by the show for different reasons and maybe not in the exact same mix. But the combination of what the crowd liked added up to the same conclusion as the combination of what the judges liked. I understand that you don't agree with this assessment (too convenient, maybe?) , just my take ...

On your last point ... I think "riot" is a relative term ... the kind of riot that a drum corps crowd is capable of I think falls way, way short of the South Central LA kind, so I wasn't too worried about that. I did think about what the reaction might be, though, and said to my wife during the break that I hoped too many people didn't boo the results if BD won. Even though everyone would know that they were "technically" booing in support of Phantom, it still would have been a sh***y thing to do to BD.

Thanks Liam, appreciate your take! By the way, I'm not only one who feels this way about the results, by a long shot. Congrats to PR, I personally know some of them (very well) and BD (I'm certain) will wear there silver with the same pride and class that defines their organization.

[Bob984]

This might be the saddest truth of all. Simply stated, the crowd around me on finals night were strategically PR fans and used the power of "reaction" to move the result in the direction they wanted. So when other specific corps did amazing things on the field they gave a, I'll use the term, "reserved response" and in some cases like with BD many PR fans figuatively and literally "sat on their hands". So, in the end this was a "well deserved popularity contest", a great corps won, but for some of the wrong reasons. Winning corps should dominate (at least somewhere) throughout the whole summer, all across the country, when local interest/desire is not overweighted. Is this a predictable and boring result (with perhaps reduced ticket sales for Finals)? Perhaps, but it's honest and not regional!

This is not a conspriracy claim, just a restatement of the above quote. You could almost feel the scowl of the crowd (at least around me) when BD (and even Cavies) entered the field, looking at them like they were some collective interlopers coming to steal the crown again. When in fact, they were simply young musicians (from throughout the country) just like PR, Cavies, Crown, etc. performing their show to the best of their ability (many of whom did not have a ring nor were part of the previous 12 wins). But they walked on the field with the glare of "here we go again" in the air. My guess is that if BD & PR (or Cavies & PR) switched uniforms, that PR would still have won.

For those DCP'ers who may respond to this, I ask two things: 1) PLEASE save your name calling and pigeon holing (Troll, etc) to yourself (it doesn't add a thing to the conversation); and 2) Why was it that PR never won a single previous meeting with the Cavies or BD until Bloomington? A PR show of the magnatude that I'm now reading about on DCP (i.e. legendary, best DCI show ever, etc) should have won at some point, it's so obvious, such a crowd pleaser!

PR had a great performance and it represents the activity wonderfully, it moves it in the direction of making it palatable to a broader audience (which DCI needs to prosper). But someone needs to explain to the 150 members of BD why local reaction should bare such an important weight unlike the other previous performances.

Not to be trite, but perhaps DCI should consider going in the direction of the American Idolesque shows and have a call-in / internet vote. Let's make the judges irrelivant and just go with crowd appeal.

I take offense to many of your comments. To insinuate that the crowd was some sort of "hometown planted local crowd" for Phantom is simply not even close, and I was there all 3 nights. I am from NJ. I even talked to a guy from California who had seen/heard shows in Cal. when Phantom was on tour early out there, and he felt if they got their visual act together, they were better than HIS OWN HOMETOWN BOYS, the Devils and Vanguard. I was at Allentown and Bloomington. At Allentown, if you are going to label a crowd as "hometown", it would have been Cadets/Crossmen.....yet Phantom and Crown got far more audience response then BD/Cavs or anyone else for that matter. And I have seen past times when both BD/Cavs tore that Allentown crowd up, so to label them as "homers" would be false. Yes, some fans didn't respond bigtime to BD or Cavs,neither in Allentown or Bloomington, and that was because their musical books did not connect with the audience nearly as well....period. I notice you don't mention Crown at all (a little harder to sell that a corps from North Carolina had tons of "homers" in Indiana), yet the crowd response to their performance was also far, far greater than BD or Cavs. Judging irrelevant? Looked like some of them (not all) , anyway, actually judged what was in front of them last Saturday. You seem to think that the season should be factored....then we might as well make nationals an exhibition. You mentioned that Phantom had not beaten Cavs/BD until Bloomington. However, they had beaten both corps many times in music, and showed an edge there throughout the year, losing the shows entirely in visual. Simply, they got better, much better, visually, and even though BD/Cavs won those captions (and if you want to question ANYTHING, we can talk about the 19.9's and perfect 20's shelled out......maybe the judges' glasses were fogged up....), Phantom closed the gap, and opened up on some of the musical gaps (ie nobody was in the same league as their drumline, for example). However, I like horse racing, and I have seen some fabulous races where a horse came from 15 lengths back to win. It's not how you get there, but how you finish, and in this case, who's the best in the world on the last night, and that was Phantom. Believe it or not, sometimes there is a good reason why a corps wins the crowd, ie a fabulous musical show that connected with emotion to the audience at a far greater level than BD or Cavs. It was VERY EFFECTIVE.

GB

[Liam]

Thanks Liam, appreciate your take! By the way, I'm not only one who feels this way about the results, by a long shot. Congrats to PR, I personally know some of them (very well) and BD (I'm certain) will wear there silver with the same pride and class that defines their organization.

Well, all this is why I generally don't give a hoot what the judges think anyway. They have their "winners" (using whatever criteria and/of for whatever reason) and I have my own preferences based on my own likes and dislikes. Often, they don't match up !!!! I mainly just enjoy all the shows as presented and consider it a weekend well spent!!!!

[cowtown]

DCI fixed the results because they thought the bando fans were going to riot if BD won?

so I guess Regiment has the championship sown up for 8 of the next 9 years then?

You know, if you listen to Field Pass Championship recap, you’ll hear Dan Acheson admit to this…his quote is something like ‘the Blue Devils put on a Championship show but the crowed willed Regiment to victory’

I love a good conspiracy, go out there and sell it, make Blue Devils proud, tell everyone, Regiment got a gift because the Blue Devils fans were in fear of their lives from Regiment fans. Tell everyone you can that Blue Devils were robbed and it was for safety sakes that Regiment won.

Do you hear that?

It sounds like black helicopters, red mist is descending

I went to the Regiment home show where the Cavies won, which I did agree with for that night – I’m just glad I made it out of there alive

Yep, drum corps folks are so bad a--, you never want to tick off a bando, more so when they just witnessed a Regiment blood letting spectacle and are worked into a mad, riot ready frenzy

I think you should write DCI, share your concerns, maybe they should put in metal detectors and extra security for next year but then again, it’d be cheaper to just keep gifting Regiment. How far away are Blue Coats, Cavies and Glassmen – time to rally the troops guy, get them to the show and heck speaking of Troops, you don’t want to mess with a Troopers fan, I hear they all carry sidearms

[BOBSMYTH]

I only got 2 complaints:

slotting in judging

and

inconsistency in judging.

Why can't the judges score the shows they see on the field that night - on any given night - and yet, how is it possible for a corps to win a World Championship over a corps they have not beaten head to head all year? This boggles my mind. Is it a conundrum? A paradox? No - it's a conspiracy, I tell ya!

[Liam]

I only got 2 complaints:

slotting in judging

and

inconsistency in judging.

Why can't the judges score the shows they see on the field that night - on any given night - and yet, how is it possible for a corps to win a World Championship over a corps they have not beaten head to head all year? This boggles my mind. Is it a conundrum? A paradox? No - it's a conspiracy, I tell ya!

EXACTLY .... no, wait ..... I'm flabbergasted!!! .... no, wait .... I'm totally on board .... or .... ummmmmm ..... I shocked!!!, I think .... or, wait again .... I'm disgusted and/or satisfied ... yeah, that's it .....

(btw, enjoyed all the shows this year -- does that matter?)

[ChiBoyinLA]

where in your mixed up crazy world did you see me asserting that judges scores were accurate or deserved? seriously, unless your tone deaf, go and listen to the recordings of 92 finals, the cavies were a bottom tier hornline. easily the worst hornline ever to win a championship, and clearly not in the class of star, bd, phantom, scv, madison or the cadets that year.ironically enough the next year they had a pretty decent hornline, particularly the contras, their best until their current run of excellent brass started in the late 90's. but 92 was just a poor hornline all around, no way around it.

So you are a better evaluator of horn lines than Dallas Niermeyer, Wayne Dillon (former Cadets Caption Head), Bernard Baggs (DCI Hall of Fame), Dave Richards (DCI Hall of Fame), Gary Markham and Paul Hinman, just some of the many judges who consistently placed the Cavaliers amongst the "top tier" of DCI horn lines throughout the 1992 season? OK. Got it.

BTW, did you attend the 1992 Finals in person?

[Michael Boo]

I'm surprised but happy to see this thread resurrected, as the link I supplied in the first posting is to a write-up I wish everyone would read if they wonder how judging works.

Here's that post again.

DCI Judging 101

I've received a few e-mails this week regarding my recaps analyses, asking me what the judges are looking and listening for...and to explain what is inside the judging sheets.

I hope the article linked above helps answer some questions for those who are new to trying to understand the judging sheets, and hopefully might even provide a little more information for those who already have a grasp of the sheets.

This is not meant to be in-depth and comprehensive.

Enjoy!