Hornlines: How much is too much?

[Greg Bright]

Goof, record for loud is '93 Star followed by '06 Phantom?

80 Spirit was loud, but 71 Caballeros was the loudest I ever heard in person.

[JayM]

Thats nice....what does that have to do with anything. I said a corps like cavies 2002 is more in tune than a corps like cadets 2007...for the reasons I listed. I didnt say how they got that way. I havent watched a cavies horn warmup since 2003...how would I know anyway...

I thought you were implying that the Cadets' hornline wasn't as in-tune as the Cavaliers because of the Cadets' lack of tuner use. If that's not what you meant, I apologize, and my post should be ignored.

[salad315]

I thought you were implying that the Cadets' hornline wasn't as in-tune as the Cavaliers because of the Cadets' lack of tuner use. If that's not what you meant, I apologize, and my post should be ignored.

No, the cadets hornline isnt as in tune as the cavaliers because they just put everyone on the same equipment, tell them to play the same way, and put the slides in the same spot. It gets them pretty close i think, and obviously some work is done with extreme tuning tendencies (bad valve combos, 3rds of chords, etc), but you can tell they dont exactly 'listen'

[Leland]

Just so we're clear on the notch thing --

When my friend and his tech worked to notch their contras' tuning slides, each horn ended up with its notches in slightly different places. He went back to horns that he played earlier to make sure that his own pitch center wasn't wandering anywhere, and, fortunately, he wasn't.

[Tez]

Guys, this tuning thing is WAY more complex than some are making it out to be. For one, every single person's oral chamber is shaped differently, so different people will play different pitches on the exact same horn. Also, tuning is all about having a musical ear. For instance, in a major triad, for the third to really be in tune, it must be extremely flat... like 17 cents or so (can't remember the exact amount). Just because one can play a unison in tune, that means nothing about actually playing with good intonation.

[raphael18]

I'll ramble for a bit..

I'll go for that.

What a lot of people get mixed up is when they think that "control" must always equate with "mellow".

People used to ask Arnold Jacobs where & why Chicago's brass section got that sound, and he said it was because the conductor asked for it -- which was also influenced by the brass just not being heard very well at the podium itself because of the room's acoustics.

Philip Farkas, one of Jacobs's fellow brass players, is credited with saying, "Each dynamic level of your instrument is associated with a particular tone color." Think carefully about that. Does it make sense to have fortissimo sound like mezzo-forte? Composers don't write "FFF" only for more decibels, they want a different, bigger, more aggressive sound. Play some Metallica on your home stereo, but instead of playing it loud, turn the volume down. It seems loud and aggressive, doesn't it? Next, play some acoustic solo guitar and turn up the volume more than before -- it will be louder, but it will still feel less aggressive than Metallica played softly.

One of the corps I heard this year (not in the top 5 that everyone talks about) stayed with the rich and mellow sound at all times. It created a couple problems, though, neither of which were small or inconsequential. One - their trumpets, like many trumpet lines I've heard, couldn't get very loud before reaching that edgy/sizzling tone color, so while they were restricted to a mere mf, the rest of the hornline had room for more volume, and they sounded bottom-heavy much of the time. Two - they weren't changing moods very well because they never played with an aggressive sound.

Mellow is mellow, and that's it -- it never gets "aggro". Sometimes you want aggression; sometimes you want huge, operatic drama.

The whole thing about playing in tune being louder, IMO, is a crock. It's a trick to encourage the players -- who always want to play louder ;) -- to pursue good intonation. Louder is louder, and there's no way around it. Star '92 and BD '88, two exceptionally well-tuned and balanced lines I've heard, were also two of the quietest hornlines among their peers... and, honestly, they just didn't get the same kind of crowd reaction as other, louder corps.

I just had to respond to this. You have encapsulated EXACTLY how I feel about music performance. Additionally, as JD Shaw said in an interview following the 07 season (and many times in 03), real musicians get out there on that edge between amazing and chaos. I want to hear that 'sizzle!'

Firstly, have a hornline play a chord out of tune, then have them play at the same dynamic, but IN tune. there IS a difference, even if it is just in terms of power- there is a difference.

See, here's the fatal flaw in the in-tune is louder argument. Groups that play in tune largely do so at the expense of overall volume. So, if you have two groups playing the same chord - one at a very loud dynamic that is not perfectly in tune, and one noticeably softer but in tune...the slightly out of tune one will probably be perceived as being louder. Regardless, the louder yet slightly out of tune one will be more fun to listen to, as there are physiological changes that are attached to the more visceral approach.

There are VERY few moments in which a line that was playing at a very high dynamic level also achieved being in tune. Usually something has to give. This is where personal opinion and approach to music come to play. I am inclined to believe that musical instruments are not meant to be homogeneous, and that there should be some character to the sound.

I recognize everything above is in direct opposition to what a lot of corps do, and that's fine...music is personal like that.

Edited September 3, 2008 by raphael18

[soccerguy315]

That talent level is certainly hard to come by - but ill disagree that they were really in tune. Most gino hornlines sound like they are 'close enough' to being in tune, without ever actually being in tune. I believe they still use that old Downey 'mark' system, where everyone just puts their tuning slide in the same place and goes for it. I saw them at warmups once and they only tuned 4 people - 1 per section. Obviously it's effective to some degree, but its no cavies 02.....ftr....i prefer it that way

just b/c they tune one person, doesn't mean all the players are on the same mark. When I used the mark system, one player was tuned, and reported back to the subsection which mark he/she was at. After a little while, you get use to how you play compared to how the person being tuned plays. So if the person being tuned is at 5 marks, and you know you are generally 2 marks further out than them, you go to 7. You can get the instruments really close very quickly when everyone knows their relative tuning slide positions to the person being tuned. Then, you do fine tuning with your ears.

It's also easier to play in tune at MF than at RFL.

Edited September 3, 2008 by soccerguy315

[Leland]

just b/c they tune one person, doesn't mean all the players are on the same mark. When I used the mark system, one player was tuned, and reported back to the subsection which mark he/she was at. After a little while, you get use to how you play compared to how the person being tuned plays. So if the person being tuned is at 5 marks, and you know you are generally 2 marks further out than them, you go to 7. You can get the instruments really close very quickly when everyone knows their relative tuning slide positions to the person being tuned. Then, you do fine tuning with your ears.

Actually, even without marks, that's how my section tunes these days. If I end up being late to rehearsal for some reason, I'll look at the others and see how much farther in or out their slides are from usual, then adjust mine accordingly.

[Bruckner8]

See, here's the fatal flaw in the in-tune is louder argument. Groups that play in tune largely do so at the expense of overall volume. So, if you have two groups playing the same chord - one at a very loud dynamic that is not perfectly in tune, and one noticeably softer but in tune...the slightly out of tune one will probably be perceived as being louder. Regardless, the louder yet slightly out of tune one will be more fun to listen to, as there are physiological changes that are attached to the more visceral approach.

There are VERY few moments in which a line that was playing at a very high dynamic level also achieved being in tune. Usually something has to give. This is where personal opinion and approach to music come to play. I am inclined to believe that musical instruments are not meant to be homogeneous, and that there should be some character to the sound.

I recognize everything above is in direct opposition to what a lot of corps do, and that's fine...music is personal like that.

I've posted on this at length before. I found them:

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/inde...t&p=2201892

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/inde...t&p=2245376

Oh well, how much fun is observation, science, and study, when emotion is much more instant?

[piperguy]

P.S. -40 is very cold, and I sympathize (last year it got to -55 with wind chill, especially on the bridge... brr.)

I remember that bridge too! I hated going accross that thing in the winter (I even DROVE across it once, but we won't go into that ). On topic...I love edge in a hornline's sound. As stated somewhere else here, if one wanted the "perfect" sound, drum corps would happen inside in a performance hall (like Gantner Hall!).

UWEC Class of '85

Bachelor of Music Education