raphael18

At least for myself, when I made the transition from a Div 3 corps of 18-23 horns to one with 23 Euphs, it was a pretty big change to say the least. The sheer size of div 1 corps requires a higher level of professionalism and initiative from each individual member. In my own experience, we were a pretty competitive div 3 corps (placing 3rd and 4th), but the demands were different. Where it was okay to get something right after 2-3 tries in div 3, you were expected to get things right on the first time in div 1. The desire to hide in the ensemble, and not play during particularly challenging drill, is greater than ever with so many people around you - but you have to have the initiative to not do it. If you can get past the being away from home all summer issue (which I will say is amazing, and I saw so many people grow be leaps and bounds), then you have to consider if you are up for the constant demands that the corps will put on you. Being in a big corps is incredibly rewarding. You will feel like a rock star all summer, and you will be thinking you are in the best ensemble you have ever been in by the 2nd or 3rd camp (and things are just getting started). Whatever you do, do it with confidence and leave no regrets.

I'm not sure what implications your allegations about Mr. Hills personal life have on his ability to arrange for the corps. Personally, I am far more concerned with the fact that he is not a former marching member. Regiment brass is very much about a certain style which has been handed down from one arranger to the next. While I do not doubt that Mr. Hill will be able to capture some of that tradition...there is only so much an outsider will be able to understand. Point blank: he will never truly understand SUTA. I am very concerned as to the future status of the buick tradition - I really hope Dan Farrel pays more attention, and helps retain it. I am a bit of a Regiment homer, but even I will admit that these changes are far from inspiring. However, I do love SCV, and am not dissapointed that they will benefit greatly from these changes. Time will tell, but only a fool sticks their head in the sand and pretends that everything is okay.

As a FMM who has no knowledge of why JD is departing (very sad news indeed), I wanted to chime in here quickly. As for arranging, I have no idea who the new person will be, but I will be even money that it will be an alumn, and that Dan Farrel will be right there ensuring that we get that Regiment sound we love. Even with a new arranger, it will still be the PR low brass line. __________ The above quote is accurate, but it is the kind of experience that members of PR EXPECT. You march PR or Cadets because you want to be pushed hard, rehearse long hours, and be a part of a great hornline. First things first, at least while I was there, these descriptions of abrasive staff were exclusive to the visual staff (namely the caption head) - and are wholly removed from the music staff which this thread is about. Now, I do not have experience with the current visual staff, I marched at the tale-end of the Bob Smith era, and he had a very abrasive style to his instruction. He was the only visual staffer that I remember ever yelling. I mean, he was loud - you could eassily hear him from the scaffolding from any point on the field without the aid of amplification. To an outsider it would have been really easy to look in without contxt and misunderstand what was going on. As a rookie, it was terrifying and overwhelming. However, eventually it all made sense, and by the end of the season we were quietly snickering on the field in response to his Full Metal Jacket Drill Instructor persona. While I was going through it I really didn't like his style of instruction, I found it frustrating, and at times very demoralizing. However, that frustration fueled my efforts to improve, and I came a very long way over the course of the season. The individual experiences were very tough, but taken as a whole I treasure that summer. So yeah, the quote is an accurate description of PR for me.

http://www.dci.org/scores/recap/view.cfm?event_id=7ad6facc-cc50-4cf4-bd6b-54f8741f61fa

Two of us have already said it - it's on the recap

Recap - BD - 96.85

Was going to say, there is a wide enough gap there for BD to easily fit in.

I wasn't sure if you were based on the OP, but we'll give it an hour or so and see what they do. I bet we won't hear a lot of complaining if even the one on top comes in under an 85. They can push their number up a bit tomorow night of course.

I would be afriad that going Open Class (while smart from a competitive stand point) would probably hurt their recruitment. Unless things have changed, one of the main draws for Pioneer members is the ability to say, "I march in a div 1 corps." They go to the major shows, and get much of the div 1 experience. For some people, that may be enough...until they get some experience and go to one of the very good nearby div 1 corps. If the corps went Open Class, they would probably have a good shot at being a regular in the top 4, but it would probably make it even harder to fill out their ranks. I don't think giving up their World Class status (and having to qualify for it again later) is really a good idea.

The actual totals are not that important, key in on the spreads.

Next step? Equipment check in, a corps meeting - perhaps an anniversery celebration or discussion about going back to see other corps? As for competition...I haven't seen these 4 corps. Is it that Pioneer is unusually bad this year, or were those three open class corps just that good this year? Not to beat up on Pioneer, they're nice people, but they have a history of struggling. I'm not 'in the know' so I really don't know what their specific problems are (as a vet you probably have better insight). That said, the same was true for the Troopers not that long ago and look at them now - fighting for that 12th spot. This season is over, time to celebrate the time they have left together and enjoy the remainder of the season. There is hope, but not without a lot of hard work.

I'll preface this by saying that every marching member I've ever met from BK was a fine example of the caliber of individual present at all levels of corps. That said, I think some of it comes down to their signature design and programming. While I agree that we should have lots of different flavors of corps, that doesn't mean we have to like every flavor. For me, BK is like black licorice. It's not for everyone, and is sort of an acquired taste. Right now GE is the pathway to higher placements. Unfortunately, and this is subjetive so don't throw things at me, BK tends to program very cerebral shows which are not GE heavy. In fact, when corps as a whole were going through an esoteric phase there, I would say that BK was one of the few that was right in their element...thus, a time at which they achieved their highest placement ever (also a time when Glassmen made a surge). BK is a quailty corps, but there are simply a lot of great groups out there right now. For example, I love Regiment's show this year, but I accept that there are at least three shows out there right now which are just better designed. Would I love to see PR in 4th come Saturday, oh yeah...but it won't diminish them in any way if they don't pull that off. Blue Knights should be very proud of their status as a perenial finalist corps. It's easy to forget, but being top 12 in the world at anything is nothing to sneer at.

Absolutely fantastic show, no questioning that. Not to sound disrespectful (I'm a huge SCV fan), but what about this great show was 'influential' for other corps in a way that sets it apart in that regard?

We were doing a show in Pennsylvania (think it was 2001 or 2002), and there were SWAT officers with automatic weapons standing by the corps entrance. That struck me as slightly odd.

The sheets aren't that much different are they? I thought the only difference was that there wasn't really a Box 5 on the Open class sheets. In honor of championships, I'll share an old one with you guys: "What do Box 1 and Box 5 have in Common?" "There is no recovery."

Perhaps things have changed, but I'm pretty sure the same judges do both Open and World class. I would be truly surprissed if there is any judge on the field during finals week getting a 'first read' on any of these shows. Back in my day (2001-2002) we did the first half of the season with DCM, which meant we were all on the same sheets. We always looked forward to the 15-20 point boost we got when we went on the DCI tour. The staffs/members should expect a difference in score, but by this point it's more about a chance to perform a show you love one last time. I say don't coddlethem, Corps members are competetors and they can handle it.

Edit: The key term here is "influential," that is, was what the group did not only something new (or a refinement of something new that someone else did), but did it influence others to follow suit. I picked three shows that measurably influenced how other corps (and bands) have approached marching/design ever since. Santa Clara Vanguard - 1980 - As the hold of the old VFW rules slowly loosened, SCV performed the first true asymmetrical drill for much of their show. It may not have been as technically difficult as the symetrical drill of their contemporaries, but I'd say it caught on. (Incidently, that must have been an amazing year to have been at finals) Phantom Regiment - 1981 - Spartacus (I) - Though sometimes debated, this is largely credited as being the first 'themed' show in which the music was all related to a central story and the visual was aimed at conveying that story to the crowd. Sure, you needed a libretto to understand what they were trying to do, but you can only ask so much from the guys who tried it first. Cadets of Bergen County - 1983 - They took the asymmetrical drill that SCV pioneered, and took it to a whole new level. This show was iconic on a lot of levels, and set the tone for much of the high velocity drill that we see today. Short of those three shows, I really feel like everything else is refinement and nuance added on top of the breakthroughs which these groups undertook. Sure, you have your first all Original Show, your first Political show, etc. However, as great as those things were, I'm not sure that they really rise to the level of these four shows, and what they did for the marching activity as a whole. The only recent show I would be ready to consider might have started something new are the Cavaliers 2001. THat show did something markedly different than even the 2000 offering in the way it fully integrated all aspects of the corps in order to portray the show theme throughout the show. If anything, it was an evolution of the concept of 'theme' that propelled it much further from a design perspective. I am not sure whether this has really had wide-spread effect on the activity as a whole, but it certainly put the Cavaliers on a different level for much of the 2000s.

(very long time no post) I haven't been to Indy without a corps before, so I have a question for those of you with more experience. We made one rookie mistake in getting a hotel which would require us to drive to the stadium. Where is a good place to park within a few blocks of the stadium? We are only going on Friday, and I was wondering if there are any special considerations for downtown parking: certain garages that are better deals than others, etc.

Perhaps, but if you change your early drum corps career, then maybe you wouldn't have had two great years at SCV.

I'm not sure how many homers there can be, I only see 3 corps listed on the poll. Personally, I voted for BD 94, because I think it was an amazing and dominant show. I don't really think scores should play a part in this conversation, though, I do think the quality of the competitive field should. However, let's be honest. In a truly competitive year, there probably wasn't an undefeated corps. Part of what sets BD 94 apart is how distinct it was from the previous BD corps. The influx of Star visual staff members really gave the corps the tools to come out and be amazing (they already had a stellar music program). So, BD 94 is not only amazing in its own right, but if you watch BD 93, it also represents an incredible departure with the past. Love it or hate it, BD 94 is where so many great BD shows from the 1990s started.

That would be brutal, in 2003 we sat on our bus for hours before we actually got to warm-up and finally perform at quarters (I hear Crown was actually stuck under the bleachers). It took so long that there was even talk of just moving all of us on to semis and retaining our placements. I can't tell you exactly why, but we simply could not lock it in after that huge delay. I'm not making excuses, but I'm saying I can understand why that would be so tough to overcome. Really, that just makes it that much more memorable that you guys powered through that. I was lucky enough to see Cadets live in 2000, and it was simply one of the most electric things I've ever seen.

For me, I feel the Cadets have really book-ended this decade. I loved how they came into it, and how they are leaving it. So, I voted 2000, with 09 surprisingly close behind.

I admit that the picture you paint above is a compelling argument for one type of demand. However, consider that perhaps the reason BD was able to spend so much time on each beat was that they simply didn't have nearly as much drill to clean in the first place. Now, I'm not saying more drill equates to higher demand, and of course quality often trumps quantity...but you still have to have a certain amount of quantity. I'm pulling this back towards the difference between demand and cleanliness. It's been a while since I looked at the sheets, but I think there is more to it than just performing your show cleanly. I was under the impression that if a group attempted more difficult drill, but performed it a bit less cleanly, then they would receive additional reward for the risk. Just as there are multiple forms of demand, there are also multiple forms of success. One can succeed competitively, and one can also succeed with the fans. The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but those that ignore the fans pay a heavy price. If you hang around drum corps long enough, you learn that competitive success is often fleeting while success with the fans is timeless. I've been watching BD 09 over and over, sincerely trying to see what it is you are vehemently rushing into every thread to defend. There are a few moments of genuine visual demand that the corps performs very well (I do appreciate how they spelled out 1930, and had to blindly dress through the chairs)...but there are also a lot of moments where the performance is perfect, but the visual material is simplistic. The simple fact is that BD lacked the visual 'wow' moments, and as such, I simply do not understand their visual GE score at all. I'll admit that BD's show may have been written for the sheets, but corps that go that route should be prepared for the negative response that approach usually gets. At the very least, Hopkins made a point of preparing his Cadets for the fact that audiences probably wouldn't love their shows. In the same way, Madison made the efforts to explain that the success with their fans was equal, or superior, to competitive success. It all comes down to priorities, and understanding repercussions. Finally, what you term 'hate,' I see as a critical response to what is before me. I honestly don't think BD receives any undue amount of critical attention, except for that which they bring upon themselves. If you have been around these forums for any length of time, the Cadets definitely receive much more negative attention (due entirely to their show design). It has nothing to do with not respecting the members, or their abilities, but stands as an indictment of show design methods which more conservative/traditional fans simply refuse to buy into.

It's not about hating BD or not, I think far to many pro-BD people are taking that stance in order to play the victim here. The simple fact is that no amount of rationalization is going to sell the inferred demand of the chairs to most avid fans of the activity. In a year or two, perhaps more BD fans will be able to stand back and truly re-evaluate this show and see what the rest of us are seeing. Personally, I'm a big BD fan. I loved most of the corps shows from 1986-2006 (with 2005 as a notable exception), but I simply can't believe the corps won with what they put out this year. I'm not particularly fond of Crown, though, I think they are quickly becoming one of my favorite corps. So, what is the real problem here - the quality of BD's design, or what the judges are rewarding? Reading this thread (and talking to many other fans of different corps affiliations), I really think the disconnect is with the judges. Part of my issue with modern judging is the inability to rank corps based on the strengths of the individual captions. [That is, a corps should be able to be top 3 in a performance caption, but still place in the bottom of the top 12] The issues with numbers management are quite apparent - though, I suspect DCI is pushing higher scores, because they feel it makes the activity more distinguished. Then, there's the apparent failure to accurately represent the distinction between Repertoire and Performance on the sheets. BD must be great at selling their shows (I recall a rumor that a certain key staff member was once a used car salesmen), but they really need to start selling to the crowds again. People don't 'boo' when the underdog doesn't win, they 'boo' when they are not satisfied with the champion. Plan9, you have to accept that this is probably the most forgettable championship show in recent memory (worse than 07 even). The BD crew can take their ring and bragging rights home, but the rest of the activity will always look at it as a bit of a debacle. If BD wants any wide-based non-California crowd support, they better bring a real show next year.

In '03, at Regiment each age-out had a special baldric placed in our housing, and members were able to write messages to the age-outs on them prior to finals. The members then wore them over their normal baldrics at finals retreat (and got to keep them). I don't know if they still do that, but I thought it was pretty cool. Additionally, when the age-outs came back to the 04 audition camp, we received these cool paper weights with the corps name, chevron, and the year on them. I guess I'm getting old though, so, hopefully some more recent members can answer that for you.