The Marching Revolution

[liebot]

\ i just thought maybe if you start to initiate earlier you'd be choreographing your next phrase and the judges usually call that out.

Not if it's done aggressively and uniformly and with complete control. I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I feel like there are some pretty freaking bad*** full-count initiations in "My Spanish Heart" from BD 94 at ultra-slow tempos. If you can make it look fluid, it doesn't look incorrect, and it doesn't look like you're telegraphing.

And I'm not sure if I buy your claim that whole count step-offs make count 2 dirty. I suppose it's possible, but I find that the biggest issue is people getting to count one on time. . . once you get there I feel like two isn't as big of a problem. Granted, it's still a bigger issue than counts 3-7 (assuming we're making a direction change on 8), but I feel like it's the same exact problem that happens when switching tempos from half-time to single time (or single time to double time). You learn to move the right foot through faster, and eventually it comes naturally.

yes i can :-) you're absolutely right in saying that the tempo doesn't effect the distance covered. it DOES however effect the speed that the leg is moving given the point in time where it started to move. examine your example at letter C.. since the 2 feet are covering different distances you need to accommodate for that (22.5 vs. 45) at the higher tempo by providing a full downbeat of initiation so the speed of the legs remains the same.

I guess I kind of understand. . .

this may or may not happen, it various from ensemble to ensemble... i find that most students will initiate everything on the eighth note and suffer bad step offs at faster tempos.

I'm not sure if you're talking band or corps here, but in corps I feel like the "eighth note all time" attitude just comes from the habits they're taught in high school marching band. If you're talking band, I'm not sure where it comes from. I just don't think and count initiations are every really that clean, though.

Edited February 13, 2009 by TSRTS13

[keymodf]

uh oh... be weary of altering the placement of the upper body weight.. when it drifts too far forward you run the risk of sacrificing step size in both backward and forward marching.. to prove this, lean your upper body (above the hips) forward and try to swing your legs, you'll notice that the range of motion in front of you diminishes the more you lean, return your body to a neutral position and you'll find that the range of motion increases. actually if you lean forward then the heel will become more of a problem because your taking away the natural lift thats created when you take a stride... thats why they invented the 'rolled heel' type of shoes... but this got me thinking if you dont rehearse in rolled heel shoes... how do you expect to perform well in them since the shock absorption changes? so moral of the story is have proper alignment all of the time!

Of course, of course. In fact, I never teach or prefer to see the upper body far over the front foot for this reason. However, after reading a lot about the mechanics of the knee during running (I strained my MCL my age out year, now I enjoy running when I can get my knee to move) and how foot placement in relation to body weight affects nearly everything about momentum, keeping your body weight forward, albeit bad for step size issues, seems better for the health of your knees.

Edited February 13, 2009 by keymodf

[DaveBari]

Not if it's done aggressively and uniformly and with complete control. I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I feel like there are some pretty freaking bad*** full-count initiations in "My Spanish Heart" from BD 94 at ultra-slow tempos. If you can make it look fluid, it doesn't look incorrect, and it doesn't look like you're telegraphing.

i'll have to investigate that show further (one of my favs).. i see what you are saying.. i agree that if placed correctly to emphasize effect that you could pull that off. im not sure if you can make a whole technique out of it, but thats up to each his own.

And I'm not sure if I buy your claim that whole count step-offs make count 2 dirty. I suppose it's possible, but I find that the biggest issue is people getting to count one on time. . . once you get there I feel like two isn't as big of a problem. Granted, it's still a bigger issue than counts 3-7 (assuming we're making a direction change on 8), but I feel like it's the same exact problem that happens when switching tempos from half-time to single time (or single time to double time). You learn to move the right foot through faster, and eventually it comes naturally.

yea, i just find i see that error in my groups more than others, but the others are also a common disease of healthy marching.

I'm not sure if you're talking band or corps here, but in corps I feel like the "eighth note all time" attitude just comes from the habits they're taught in high school marching band. If you're talking band, I'm not sure where it comes from. I just don't think and count initiations are every really that clean, though.

agreed... both band/corps have natural tendencies like that. its hard to break but it takes time to apply treatment. i think most people who teach band forget the 'rule' about switching tempo, so they just make one uniform point in time to step off (logical).

Of course, of course. In fact, I never teach or prefer to see the upper body far over the front foot for this reason. However, after reading a lot about the mechanics of the knee during running (I strained my MCL my age out year, now I enjoy running when I can get my knee to move) and how foot placement in relation to body weight affects nearly everything about momentum, keeping your body weight forward, albeit bad for step size issues, seems better for the health of your knees.

yea, i think by having alignment in the upper body and stretching the leg to take maybe a 6 or 5 to 5 w/o jazz running may be not as great for your health than altering the alignment... yea... meh.. lol

[bachstrad3c]

Wow! This topic has morphed into a discussion about initiation and backwards technique...

The Marching Revolution:

My memory is not all that great, but it would seem that in the late 1970's and early 1980's The Santa Clara Vanguard and The Garfiled Cadets may (stressing 'MAY') have had the most stylized marching technique programs in the activity at that point in time. It's interesting that during that time most groups were coming down on their heels during the backwards movement. Cadets made coming down on the heel really happen at quick tempos in 1983.

At some point during the mid 1980's other groups began to borrow philosophies and approaches from The Santa Clara Vanguard and The Garfield Cadets. It would be interesting to see if someone could trace the lineage of The Cavaliers' marching technique program because it looks very similar to The Santa Clara Vanguard's technique program with some exceptions and variations (which we would hopefully expect and welcome). Any ideas?

Also, at this same time, the The Garfield Cadets appear to have experimented with incorporating more dance concepts into their program and the evolution of remaining off the heels during the backwards motion seems to have evolved. This would especially make sense with program for 1987.

As the 1990's approached, there appeared to be two basic dominant approaches The Santa Clara Vanguard/ The Cavaliers & The Cadets (formerly Garfield)/ Star of Indiana (which would later serve as the basis for The Blue Devils). Naturallly, other groups used different techniques or variations on what appeared to be the dominant philosophies of that era.

As the 1990's became the modern era it really appears that marching technique has homogrenized into the Blue Devils/ Cadets being the dominant approach with The Cavaliers holding steady against that trend and the emergence of the Blue Knights really trying to introduce their own niche.

Is one approach better than the other? Heck, I don't know! Different is good in my opinion and I wonder if this debate over backwards technique was going on in the early 1980's when performers started remaining off their heels? I guess, and I don't pretend to be an expert, it's all really asthetics and personal choice. If one questions The Cavaliers' technique they can support their choices with countless visual titles and the same can be said of the Blue Devils and The Cadets.

So, in terms of Revolution ('Evolution' is probably a better term)...I am just going to throw out some names (no order or preference):

Gail Royer

Steve Brubaker

George Zinglai

Michael Gaines

Jay Murphy

Todd Ryan & Jeff Fiedler

Mitch Rogers & Mark Sylvester

John Bradford

Jamie Holly & Sly Sybilski

Mike Tarr & Ron Hardin

Jud Merrit & Joe Weaver

All of these people have (and I am sure many, many more) influenced modern marching and had some role in the marching revolution

[CloudHype]

As for the technique closest to natural walking, I get you on the forward march, but how many people do you know who stay up on their toes when walking backward? :) I consider the similar techniques employed by the Blue Knights and the Cavaliers to be the most natural when it comes to marching backward.

When do corps march as slow a tempo as we walk? Next to never.

I compare backwards marching to a Cornerback covering a Wide Reciver, corners are always on their platformwhen running backwards or else they'll fall flat on their behind. Backwards walking is just not natural, although I'll agree that Blue Knights and Cavaliers have the most natural way of doing an unnatural act.

[JayM]

When do corps march as slow a tempo as we walk? Next to never.

During just about every ballad.

I compare backwards marching to a Cornerback covering a Wide Reciver, corners are always on their platformwhen running backwards or else they'll fall flat on their behind. Backwards walking is just not natural, although I'll agree that Blue Knights and Cavaliers have the most natural way of doing an unnatural act.

Yes, cornerbacks stay on their heels when moving backwards out of necessity. That's because they're running, not walking. And I'm not even talking about speed, really, though that obviously factors in a little bit. The issue is that when one runs (forward or backward), there is a period of time in each stride where both feet are off of the ground, which is why rolling down to the heel doesn't work. Walking isn't like that, and marching is much more closely related to walking than it is to running.

Not that it wouldn't be fun to have Nnamdi Asomugha try to play a trumpet while backpedaling...

Edited February 14, 2009 by Jayzer

[Craig III]

After the initial step-off, individual leg speed should be the same as both feet move the same distance until the next set.

[DaveBari]

After the initial step-off, individual leg speed should be the same as both feet move the same distance until the next set.

why yes they do :-)

[CloudHype]

During just about every ballad.

Walking isn't like that, and marching is much more closely related to walking than it is to running.

Then why bend your knees (forwards and backwards) like a runner gait vs. the straighter leg of a "race walking" gait. Yes... I know race walking has bent knees (where the support leg is straight in a fast walking gate) but the roll up and roll down styles have the bent "ands" on both legs (at least watching videos, might not be taught that way).

Edited February 18, 2009 by CloudHype