The Marching Revolution

[kickhaltsforlife]

I have to say I'm in full heartedness agreement with Brian... with everything he has said...

Can we get married now?

[JayM]

How many people (besides tour guides) do you know that spend a lot of time walking backwards? And FWIW, when I walk backwards I use "a straight leg technique."

That's kind of my point. Walking backwards isn't something people do very often, so it's likely that when they do, they're doing what feels the most natural to them rather than doing something they've been trained to do, as in your case.

Ask any unsuspecting human to walk backwards (without telling them why) and I promise you they will roll down to their heel. Just for fun, I checked out about 10 videos on YouTube where people were walking backwards, and every person in every video was rolling down to their heels. That's not scientific, of course, but I challenge you to prove me wrong.

I also believe that backwards straight leg technique isn't healthy for the knees. In order to keep the leg straight, the knee is tasked with offsetting the impact that comes with every step. The knee naturally wants to bend, and allowing it do so diffuses the impact, lessening the strain on the knee. When it's not allowed to bend, the knee is forced to deal with the brunt of the force almost all by itself.

In Cavalier backwards technique, the actual impact of the foot does not happen all in one place, or even all at one time. It is spread over the entire foot over the course of a very short period of time (dependent on tempo), and the knee is moving the entire time. There is of course some resistance required to meter the motion of the step from toe to heel (not present in the videos of the bumbling backward walkers found on YouTube), but that seems to be mostly taken care of by the quadricepes and hamstrings.

To me, it's almost like the difference between belly flopping out of the back of a fast-moving pickup—and jumping, positioning yourself longways, and then spinning as fast as possible upon impact. (edit: a more relevant analogy might be: catching a football with some heat on it stiffly vs. moving your hands with the motion of the ball while catching it to lessen the pain of the impact)

In any case, I might see if I can get the opinion of a retired orthopedic surgeon I know on this matter.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Jayzer

[liebot]

I also believe that backwards straight leg technique isn't healthy for the knees. In order to keep the leg straight, the knee is tasked with offsetting the impact that comes with every step. The knee naturally wants to bend, and allowing it do so diffuses the impact, lessening the strain on the knee. When it's not allowed to bend, the knee is forced to deal with the brunt of the force almost all by itself.

You won't get any argument from me on that one. I know bent-knee technique is better for the knees, on the forward and backward march. Way, way, better.

[HUGADA]

I think there was an evolution taking place in the 80's due to the increased demand and velocity that drills exhibited. In general, it was the transtition from the military marching techniques that were used in the earlier eras of DC and the marching activity into the more ergonomic and athletic movement techniques..and a lot of it was trial and error. Remember, one of the most important rules changes that almost noone talks about is the adaptation of the football grid for performance fields in the late 70's (remember just one middle line and a big X?) and the removal of the entrance/exits lines at the inception of DCI. This loosened up drill designs (the lines made a world of difference...no more guideons and pics!) and allowed writers to become more adventurous. As normal, movement styles had to change with the change of movement demand...and within that transition, you had some style differences..and some that just did not work. Organic design finally took over; and you get the styles you have now that are somewhat related.

I need a rest..I am sounding like a college professor...Piled high and Deep!

Wow! I'm enjoying the "high tech" discussions re: marching technique and the like. I miss the marching style of the '70's, esp. SCV, the high leg lift, etc. But now I understand why. It always amazed me, for example, that the cymbal and bass lines leg lift was so high, but they weren't moving like they do today! I was introduced to crabbing a few years ago, and still can't do it well...too much linear movement in my drum corps old school past! It also amazed me that the drum majors were able to mark time throughout most of the show on the podium without shifting or falling off...what a keen sense of balance and control!

[euponitone]

You won't get any argument from me on that one. I know bent-knee technique is better for the knees, on the forward and backward march. Way, way, better.

I would tend to agree, not that I've ever marched any other way. That said, its not like you actually keep your knees locked on the backup when marching 'straight leg'. At a 16 to 5 or smaller, you can easily keep your legs straight...no problem. At this step size or smaller, the stress on the legs is pretty small (I would think). Once you get bigger than that, there is a slight, natural, knee bend, along with a flexing of the ankle, that allows the leg to pass through. Without this, you get the dreaded 'rolling hips' that a few on here have mentioned...

[MikeD]

Win.

Has the ministry released anything new lately? Have you come up with one yourself?

No, but how about this:

[bachstrad3c]

That's kind of my point. Walking backwards isn't something people do very often, so it's likely that when they do, they're doing what feels the most natural to them rather than doing something they've been trained to do, as in your case.

Ask any unsuspecting human to walk backwards (without telling them why) and I promise you they will roll down to their heel. Just for fun, I checked out about 10 videos on YouTube where people were walking backwards, and every person in every video was rolling down to their heels. That's not scientific, of course, but I challenge you to prove me wrong.

I also believe that backwards straight leg technique isn't healthy for the knees. In order to keep the leg straight, the knee is tasked with offsetting the impact that comes with every step. The knee naturally wants to bend, and allowing it do so diffuses the impact, lessening the strain on the knee. When it's not allowed to bend, the knee is forced to deal with the brunt of the force almost all by itself.

In Cavalier backwards technique, the actual impact of the foot does not happen all in one place, or even all at one time. It is spread over the entire foot over the course of a very short period of time (dependent on tempo), and the knee is moving the entire time. There is of course some resistance required to meter the motion of the step from toe to heel (not present in the videos of the bumbling backward walkers found on YouTube), but that seems to be mostly taken care of by the quadricepes and hamstrings.

To me, it's almost like the difference between belly flopping out of the back of a fast-moving pickup—and jumping, positioning yourself longways, and then spinning as fast as possible upon impact. (edit: a more relevant analogy might be: catching a football with some heat on it stiffly vs. moving your hands with the motion of the ball while catching it to lessen the pain of the impact)

In any case, I might see if I can get the opinion of a retired orthopedic surgeon I know on this matter.

This is a really good analysis of The Cavaliers' backward technique. It is interesting that some note a 'natural knee bend' to straight leg technique on extended backwards steps, but will often criticize The Cavaliers for knee-bend. Straight Leg on backwards looks awesome at 16-to-5, but anything within what we consdier an average step in modern drum corps (8-to-5 or larger) the member is almost automatically coming down on the back heel and bending the knee in some fashion...why fight what the body wants to do naturally or does the body naturally want straight rigid legs?

Seems to me most athletic motions are generated through knee motions (hitting a baseball, hittin a golf ball, running, skating, jumping, etc etc...) why go against it....I don't know...I didn't march and these are just my thoughts form loving the DVD's

[Trombean]

Oh I thought this was a thread about Revolution?

That's what I thought also. I was a little disappointed.

[liebot]

Straight Leg on backwards looks awesome at 16-to-5, but anything within what we consdier an average step in modern drum corps (8-to-5 or larger) the member is almost automatically coming down on the back heel and bending the knee in some fashion

Nah, not if you're a good marcher. Maintenance of platform height (that is, not rolling down on the heel, or even rolling down to the center part of your foot) is the key to looking good on the back up, and I honestly think a lot of the bouncing on the back up doesn't come from stiff legs but instead from people landing with their foot too high up on the platform (aka, close to on their tip toes) and then as their leg moves through the crossing count they roll back slightly onto the middle of their platform (which is where they should have landed initially) or onto the center of their foot. This leads to a loss of height through the and count followed by a regaining of that height on the next downbeat, which means people are consistently losing and gaining height on each step, leading to a bounce.

Granted, a lot of people do bounce because their legs are too straight and they don't use their ankles and core to absorb enough shock. But I've seen people (and I've done it myself) back up at a 6 to 5 at or around 200 bpm without bouncing or bending their knees. A lot of it's momentum, and a lot of it's just kind of figuring it out. Once you learn to visual yourself being propelled backwards by the front-most foot and not reaching back with your back foot everything else kind of comes naturally. The bend that does occur is an extremely slight one and (like I've said before) only enough to ensure that A. your feet aren't dragging along the ground and B. your hips stay in proper alignment throughout the phrase. I've always imagined my front leg going completely dead after the platform pushes off of the ground. You relax the muscles, let the momentum and propulsion provided by the back leg (which is know pushing you through to the next down beat) just kind of carry that leg through until it hits and engages immediately on the next downbeat. There is no conscious or willful bend of the knee. It just happens.

I have to go to class now, though. I'll be back in about and hour to reread this to see if it makes any sense/add anything new.

[FTNK]

Straight Leg on backwards looks awesome at 16-to-5, but anything within what we consdier an average step in modern drum corps (8-to-5 or larger) the member is almost automatically coming down on the back heel and bending the knee in some fashion

Nah, it's really not hard at all to stay on your platform.