dbc03 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Alright, honest question for you, and anyone else who was there in '88. Truthfully, if Scouts had not gone on last, do you think they would have won? I don't see why not considering they won semi finals by over a point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Alright, honest question for you, and anyone else who was there in '88. Truthfully, if Scouts had not gone on last, do you think they would have won? And remember, in prelims Blue Devils went on immediately after Scouts in 1988. And Scouts beat BD by a larger margin at prelims than finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I really just don't understand the problem people are trying to fix... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I really just don't understand the problem people are trying to fix... No "problem". Just preference. Why does it have to be addressing a problem? Why can't it just be a suggestion of a change we'd like to see? I'd also like to see full retreat with the corps playing themselves off. Not because there's a problem without it, but just because I think it would be cool. Same kind of thing here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouooga Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 And remember, in prelims Blue Devils went on immediately after Scouts in 1988. And Scouts beat BD by a larger margin at prelims than finals. Actually, I never knew that. I always assumed that the performance order on semis and finals went BD, SCV and then Scouts. Alright, now I need to rethink this.... I really just don't understand the problem people are trying to fix... Not really trying to fix anything. Just discussing other alternatives I guess. I will say though, over the course of a season, if a corps goes on first at every single show and another corps goes on last at every single show, the difference in total rehearsal time is pretty darn close to two days. That's at least a point possible, and a point can be a huge difference to some corps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElSuarez Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Not sure I go along with your reasoning on a couple of points. First, you say that Phantom came into the evening in 6th place and ended the evening in 6th place despite performing early. So it seems you're making an assumption that they would have moved up or that they would have had a better chance to move up had they performed later. I think the fact that they ended up the evening in the same placement they started (which, btw, is the overwhelming case for all corps all years) shows to me that the random order made no difference.Secondly, one could make an arguement that Phantom actually had an advantage that evening, because their show would have appeared significantly better than the corps before and after them, whereas Cavies show would have appeared significantly worse than the corps performing before and after them ("significant" in the DCI sense of top 3 or so being in a class above 4-7 and so on). If, as it seems, you believe that judges are influenced by the draw and need to compare like corps together, doesn't it hold that they would be more likely to overscore a corps so outperforming the one right before them and vice-versa? Again, the fact that the placements came out pretty similar to going in, I'd say the judges were able to navigate the performace order adequately Also, (and even though I am also in favor of randomizing on Finals night) here we are talking about randomizing at Quarters, with Semis and Finals based on scores achieved the previous night, so even with your concern, it would all work itself out before Finals night. Like I stated in my initial sentence, I believe that each approach has its pros and cons. I was just trying to give an example of what I think is a con of the randomization approach. I am definitely not making the assumption that Phantom should have or would have gone up in placement that night. However, I do think they were placed at a disadvantage that night by going on so early in the contest. They went on directly after the corps who ended up placing 9th (Spirit). Even if the various judges had scored them "significantly" better then Spirit, they might have been awarded more "significantly" had the performed later in the evening. A judge evaluating both Spirit and Phantom could decide that Phantom was much better than Spirit but how as to how much and how many corps will fall in between these two is much more of a guess at that point in the contest than it is on later on at night. I think they are more likely to underscore rather than overscore early on. I don't think that the judges are influenced by the draw, but I think it is easier for them to make direct comparisons when like corps go on right after one-another. I think this process makes for a more accurate placement when all is said and done. I do agree with you that it does appear that the judges were able to navigate this performance order adequatley but who knows what would have happened (both score-wise and performance-wise) had Phantom performed later on in the evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I will say though, over the course of a season, if a corps goes on first at every single show and another corps goes on last at every single show, the difference in total rehearsal time is pretty darn close to two days. That's at least a point possible, and a point can be a huge difference to some corps! Two extra days of practice isn't going to help Pioneer pass The Blue Devils. The corps that Pioneer is realistically competing against are going to be going on early too so they won't have those extra days of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElSuarez Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Alright, honest question for you, and anyone else who was there in '88. Truthfully, if Scouts had not gone on last, do you think they would have won? Scouts were not last. Garfield picked the #12 and went on last that night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElSuarez Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 No "problem". Just preference. Why does it have to be addressing a problem? Why can't it just be a suggestion of a change we'd like to see?I'd also like to see full retreat with the corps playing themselves off. Not because there's a problem without it, but just because I think it would be cool. Same kind of thing here Got to agree with you there. There was something very ritualistic and majestic watching corps leave finals in reverse score order playing (usually "their" song). I think it was a very emotional and memorable moment for marchers and spectators alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 (edited) I do agree with you that it does appear that the judges were able to navigate this performance order adequatley but who knows what would have happened (both score-wise and performance-wise) had Phantom performed later on in the evening. Good point -- who knows what would have happened with any change?? I will say this, though. I can point to numerous specific, historical examples of corps performing out of order that ended up in a reasonable placement -- your Phantom example, Pacific Crest having to go on first a few years ago but still making Semis, Madison in 1988 winning Semis and Finals even though the performance order was totally different each night. Historical example generally trump speculation in my book, and these examples indicate that the judges are capable of dealing with random perf order, so I think some of this is a moot argument. It's true that the corps themselves may perform differently later than earlier for a variety of reasons, but I guess my point is that I'd like to offer Pioneer that same opportunity to find out as the Blue Devils get regularly. Remember, we're only talking Quarters here -- you'd still have to "earn" your spot and step-off time in Semis and Finals. Heck, if nothing else, I think this change would at least end the nonsense arguments of slotting performance order bias and such if the Quarters scores still came out in a reasonable order, don't ya think ... Edited July 10, 2009 by Liam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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