Ludwig Baritone Bugle Fingerings

[Bruckner8]

25 right out of 27, not bad for a latecomer to the world of G-D.

Ya can't get the G on top of the staff with a rotary, unless it's the 7th partial on an E rotary.

The G# with both valves is a 9th partial.

And since we're correcting each other...for G to be a 7th partial, it would have to be an A rotary...unless you went into concert pitch midstream (where E is the concert pitch (fundamental) and G is the transposed D concert)

[HornsUp]

And since we're correcting each other...for G to be a 7th partial, it would have to be an A rotary...unless you went into concert pitch midstream (where E is the concert pitch (fundamental) and G is the transposed D concert)

Yes, that's the way it was. We named the rotary attachments by the concert pitch harmonic series they produced. The E rotary lowered the pitches of a G bugle by a minor 3rd.

Only a handful of corps, notably the 1961-63 Royal Airs and the 1962-63 Cavaliers, utilized E rotaries on their bass-baritones.

And only a handful of instructors could sort this all out. That is why we lobbied heavily for the legalization of the G-F-F# bugle.

And it took only two competitive seasons for the entire activity to switch over. By the dawn of the 70s it was extremely rare to find any kind of G-D horn on the field.

Now if you're still with us, take a trip over to TubeNet where they like to discuss tubas in BBb, CC, Eb and F --- with various configurations of their 5th and 6th valves, and some slide-pulling to boot.

Or if you really want to freak, cop yourself a complete fingering chart for bassoon.

[G-horns]

25 right out of 27, not bad for a latecomer to the world of G-D.

Ya can't get the G on top of the staff with a rotary, unless it's the 7th partial on an E rotary.

The G# with both valves is a 9th partial.

HornsUp, I agree. I missed the low F# and C#, and the first space F# 'cuz they were usually soooo bad we never thought of 'em as notes. As an aside, the slip-slide was a tremendous improvement because you could "dial-in" the half steps to compensate for inherent bad intonation. I can remember playing a tune in Eb that, for the benefit of all the other voices required the sopranos to pull the slides a bit more on the Eb so the line would be in tune with itself. We never put that Eb on a strobe (tuner for you modern folks) because we knew it would be at least 20 cents flat.

[The Oz]

<snip>

Or if you really want to freak, cop yourself a complete fingering chart for bassoon.

A fingering chart for the bassoon is not nearly enough. My #2 daughter owns a 100-plus page book of bassoon fingerings. Some notes have as many as a dozen fingerings. All depends on where you’re coming from and where you’re going to.

And there is another 85-page book listing shakes and trills.

You three-valve folks have it easy.

Edit -- I found the first book. It's 375 pages. From Forrests Music:

The Essentials of Bassoon Technique, by Cooper and Toplansky

The only definitive listing of virtually all bassoon fingerings. An essential reference work for professionals as well as advancing students. 375 pages, hardcover.

(#X-05) $69.95

And there is bugger all text in the book.

Edited November 4, 2009 by The Oz

[Scooter Pirtle]

Yes, that's the way it was. We named the rotary attachments by the concert pitch harmonic series they produced. The E rotary lowered the pitches of a G bugle by a minor 3rd.

Only a handful of corps, notably the 1961-63 Royal Airs and the 1962-63 Cavaliers, utilized E rotaries on their bass-baritones.

And only a handful of instructors could sort this all out. That is why we lobbied heavily for the legalization of the G-F-F# bugle.

And it took only two competitive seasons for the entire activity to switch over. By the dawn of the 70s it was extremely rare to find any kind of G-D horn on the field.

Now if you're still with us, take a trip over to TubeNet where they like to discuss tubas in BBb, CC, Eb and F --- with various configurations of their 5th and 6th valves, and some slide-pulling to boot.

Or if you really want to freak, cop yourself a complete fingering chart for bassoon.

Considering the change from G-D to G-F took roughly 60 years to happen, it really is amazing to consider how quickly such a major change was adopted and facilitated by the corps. It probably helped that a hack saw and portable torch could be used to modify existing instruments in the field. Of course, these beasts were often hauled while hanging from a wooden peg in a box van (or horse trailer).

Not being from that era, I've always been curious to know if there was a loud outcry from fundamentalists about the ruin of drum corps by this change?

[Bruckner8]

Yes, that's the way it was. We named the rotary attachments by the concert pitch harmonic series they produced. The E rotary lowered the pitches of a G bugle by a minor 3rd.

Yeah, I hear ya. Thanks.

Now if you're still with us, take a trip over to TubeNet where they like to discuss tubas in BBb, CC, Eb and F --- with various configurations of their 5th and 6th valves, and some slide-pulling to boot.

That's where I'm coming from,lol. Not necessarily TubeNet, but I maintain a spreadsheet with valve combinations, target length, actual length, and thus additional length needed (that is "slide pull.") when used in each combination.

Truth be told, I had no idea there was a period of "overlap" like we're discussing here. I knew there was a time with a single valve (piston?) that brought it down a 4th, G-D, but every Piston/Rotor horn I ever saw was G-F-F#. I just assumed they want from G-D to G-F-F#, since A) that would be cheaper, and B) make a whole lot more sense, musically. That must have made purists furious, since the entire thinking was probably "We're not chromatic! That's the point! If we go G-F-F#, we may as well go 3V and not call ourselves a drum corps anymore!"

I love DCP when I learn new stuff.

[ironlips]

Yes, it was the best of times. It was the worst of times, the end of Drum Corps for some, a fresh beginning for others.

But it constituted a great opportunity for young self-taught corps brass instructors to work out all the various permutations and combinations, on the job.

Most of the little parade corps I taught then had a mixed bag of G/D valve/slide, F# and F rotor, filed down tuning slide, sopranos, tenor sopranos, long French Horns (some with rotors, some with slip/ring slides, some with frozen tuning slides), small-bell baritones(like the one pictured, which incidentally, has a half-step F# rotor), and the occasional bass baritone. Nobody had a matched line. There were Ludwigs, Getzens, Conns, Slingerlands, Rogers, Holtons, Whayey-Royces, Kings, Queens and Jokers.

After 1967, one can add some G/F/F# horns into the mix. It was the Tower of Babel in Brass, and the best thing that ever happened to me.

Edited November 4, 2009 by ironlips

[Brad T.]

The beast arrived today. Man, it's tough to play. I have the hang of the Dynasty II Contra that I play in my corps, but this is just wild. The G-D piston plus F# rotor is just difficult. I don't even know what arrangements there are out there for bugles with this set up. Oddly enough I wouldn't have it any other way though. This truly was a unique performance venture for any student back in the day. I hope to add a few more bugles to my collection in the future.

[ironlips]

Post Script:

This "beast" can be tamed rather easily if you play it with a trombone approach. It's all about tone. In fact, it was originally marketed as a "Baro-tone" Bugle.

The bell is trombone shaped and does not respond well to overblowing. Think "Tommy Dorsey" or "Kai Winding". The horn will center well and resonate.

[G-horns]

Not being from that era, I've always been curious to know if there was a loud outcry from fundamentalists about the ruin of drum corps by this change?

Oohhhh, yeah.