BRASSO Posted June 16, 2010 Share Posted June 16, 2010 (edited) We oftentimes hear how in Major League Baseball that " there is no salary cap, and as such, it's the same teams all the time that get the huge advantage ". That " there is little parity in major league baseball. It's the same high payroll teams, all the time, competing for the title" and that...." most teams have no shot at getting to the World Series as they are the have nots"...., and so forth. I'm sure if you've followed Major League Baseball even a little bit, you've probably heard these remarks at one time or another. So I did some research to take a look at the baseball teams that made it to the World Series since 1997... as well as the Corps that finished 1st and runnerup at DCI Championships in the similar time frame of 1997 to 2009. What I found was pretty interesting in my opinion. Major league baseball has between 28-30 teams in all of baseball. Since 1997, 17 teams of those approx. 28-30 teams have made it to the World Series in the last 12 years. Those teams are as follows : Florida Marlins Cleveland Indians San Diego Padres Atlanta Braves NY Mets Arizona Diamondbacks San Francisco Giants LA Angels Houston Astros Chicago White Sox Detroit Tigers St. Louis Cardinals Colorado Rockies Boston Red Sox Tampa Rays Philadelphia Phillies NY Yankees In DCI in a similar time frame of 12 years, in which there are approx. 22-26 World Class Corps ( pretty close in overall numbers to MLB total teams ), there has been a total of 6 Corps that have finished 1st or 2nd at Championships. Those Corps are as follows : Blue Devils Carolina Crown Phantom Regiment The Cadets The Cavaliers Santa Clara Vanguard. What can we conclude from this ? Well, for one, there is approx. 3 times less parity in DCI than there is in Major League Baseball. That since 1997, a Major League Baseball team, even a from a small market with very low resources and with few finances compared to the others, has a MUCH greater chance of getting to the World Series, than does a DCI Corps that is not one of the handful. Also, we can conclude that Major League Baseball fans have a pretty good chance that most Major League Baesball teams ( more than half ) will make an appearance at least once a decade in the World Series. In addition, that most DCI fans can expect that less than 20% of the World Class Corps have any chance at all of getting to 1st or 2nd at Championships in any decade. The fact that there is a proposal ( G-7 ) that would essentially lock in this type of a system with even MORE encouragement to non parity, just shows how broken the DCI competitive system has become where Major League Baseball of all sports, has more chances for success by the have nots than do the Corps in DCI. Just some food for thought, with some research analysis to back up my comments. Edited June 16, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 (edited) Great research Brasso!!! The 1 and 2 in the World Series vs, the 1 and 2 in DCI. Good comparison!!! I can also see another huge difference: In MLB, the teams make it to the series on based objective criteria; the outcome of each game in the regular season, in the playoffs, and the World Series is determined by who has the most runs scored through objective means of hitting the ball and making it back to home plate without the hit ball getting caught or the runner getting tagged out. Purely objective scoring system. Sure there is a little subjective calls by the umps, ie what is a strike, did the batter break his wrists during the swing, did the batter reach the base before the baseman caught the ball; BUT the scoring is purly objective, those with the most runs wins. In DCI, the corps placements throughout the season, the quarter finals, semi finals, and then into the top two places at finals is based on purely subjective means; ie judges opinions. Sure there are objective criteria for the judges to use on their sheets, but the outcome is purely based on their opinion on whether or not a corps meet that criteria, and therefore it is that subjective opinion which creates the outcome scores. No real opinion on whether or not one way is more valuable than the other, but just wanted to mention that it could also be a reason MLB has many teams who are 1 and 2 while DCI only as an very few. Edited June 17, 2010 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamu89 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 MLB also has a draft where the weaker teams get first crack at new talent that is required to stay with the team that signs them for a certain number of years before being able to go elsewhere, which tends to even things out slightly. The only exception to that are foreign players (Cuba, Japan, etc). The teams that are usually at the top spend the money to get that talent when it's available. If the system were like DCI where everyone is a free agent and there is no draft, you'd see the same handful of teams always at the top. Also, success in MLB can be had by having some players on the team being of high caliber - a couple of really good starting pitchers, a good reliever or two, and 3-4 top notch hitters with an average to good supporting cast is all that is necessary for success. It seems that you need more across the board talent to win in DCI. Successful baseball teams also have a good GM that evaluates the talent well and makes good decisions on who to draft/pick up, kind of like the DCI design and instructional team. So until DCI has a draft and the members have no choice where they march their first few years, across the board parity is not realistic in DCI, IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Comparing DCI to anything where people are paid to play (salary, scholarships, etc) is folly. It wouldn't even work for NCAA sports. A closer analog would be little league, boy scouts, intramural dance teams, etc, and even then, it would be a poor comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 MLB also has a draft where the weaker teams get first crack at new talent that is required to stay with the team that signs them for a certain number of years before being able to go elsewhere, which tends to even things out slightly. The only exception to that are foreign players (Cuba, Japan, etc). The teams that are usually at the top spend the money to get that talent when it's available. If the system were like DCI where everyone is a free agent and there is no draft, you'd see the same handful of teams always at the top. Also, success in MLB can be had by having some players on the team being of high caliber - a couple of really good starting pitchers, a good reliever or two, and 3-4 top notch hitters with an average to good supporting cast is all that is necessary for success. It seems that you need more across the board talent to win in DCI. Successful baseball teams also have a good GM that evaluates the talent well and makes good decisions on who to draft/pick up, kind of like the DCI design and instructional team. So until DCI has a draft and the members have no choice where they march their first few years, across the board parity is not realistic in DCI, IMHO Good point about a draft. The positioning of a " draft " does indeed position the lower placing teams with a varying degree of opportunity to get back in the hunt in the future. Also, your point that some really good " performers " ie pitchers can make a big difference is also telling, as well. DCI has no draft, no individual performers that can make such a big difference. Corps put over 125 " performers" out on the field. MLB teams can only put 9 out on the field at any one time. Without a draft, and with all performers allowed to become essentially " free agents" at any time, it's hard to get movement at the top on a periodic basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 Great research Brasso!!! The 1 and 2 in the World Series vs, the 1 and 2 in DCI. Good comparison!!!I can also see another huge difference: In MLB, the teams make it to the series on based objective criteria; the outcome of each game in the regular season, in the playoffs, and the World Series is determined by who has the most runs scored through objective means of hitting the ball and making it back to home plate without the hit ball getting caught or the runner getting tagged out. Purely objective scoring system. Sure there is a little subjective calls by the umps, ie what is a strike, did the batter break his wrists during the swing, did the batter reach the base before the baseman caught the ball; BUT the scoring is purly objective, those with the most runs wins. In DCI, the corps placements throughout the season, the quarter finals, semi finals, and then into the top two places at finals is based on purely subjective means; ie judges opinions. Sure there are objective criteria for the judges to use on their sheets, but the outcome is purely based on their opinion on whether or not a corps meet that criteria, and therefore it is that subjective opinion which creates the outcome scores. No real opinion on whether or not one way is more valuable than the other, but just wanted to mention that it could also be a reason MLB has many teams who are 1 and 2 while DCI only as an very few. Also an excellent point here regarding the objective criteria that determines winning in baseball, and the much more subjective criteria that determines placements, scoring, and winning in DCI. The fact that Corps at the top in DCI will get the benefit of the doubt in so called " close calls " certainly would lead to the increased possibility of retrenchment of those at or near the top as well, I'd imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochester New York Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 What can we conclude from this ? Well, for one, there is approx. 3 times less parity in DCI than there is in Major League Baseball. That since 1997, a Major League Baseball team, even a from a small market with very low resources and with few finances compared to the others, has a MUCH greater chance of getting to the World Series, than does a DCI Corps that is not one of the handful. Also, we can conclude that Major League Baseball fans have a pretty good chance that most Major League Baesball teams ( more than half ) will make an appearance at least once a decade in the World Series. In addition, that most DCI fans can expect that less than 20% of the World Class Corps have any chance at all of getting to 1st or 2nd at Championships in any decade. The fact that there is a proposal ( G-7 ) that would essentially lock in this type of a system with even MORE encouragement to non parity, just shows how broken the DCI competitive system has become where Major League Baseball of all sports, has more chances for success by the have nots than do the Corps in DCI. Just some food for thought, with some research analysis to back up my comments. Great research, brasso. There is also the fact that MLB pulls from a much, much bigger of pool of potential, serious players. In other words, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of good players who would kill to play in ANY major league team. Conversely, a corps like Glassmen or Troopers probably only cuts a few dozen good players each season. And, if we're talking about specific sections, Madison has often had trouble merely filling out their guard. I believe the change to 150-member corps only exacerbated the lack of parity, though that would pale in comparison to the effect of the G-7 proposal if implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 (edited) Comparing DCI to anything where people are paid to play (salary, scholarships, etc) is folly. It wouldn't even work for NCAA sports. A closer analog would be little league, boy scouts, intramural dance teams, etc, and even then, it would be a poor comparison. I think we'd find less parity in little league baseball than in DCI competition. Little league baseball is more objective in who wins and who losers, particularly revolving around the respective pitchers utilized by the teams on that particular day. Change the pitchers on the teams, and the outcome can be quite different from day to day. As for " dance teams ", I really don't know how these are judged. My hunch is that it is much more highly subjective. Thus, if the dance teams have a set routine and compete against other dance teams, it would appear that the results would probably tend to mirror the Corps in competition over the course of a competitive season, if the members were all in the same in each of the competitions and the dance choreogragraphy routine is the same. There may be slight placement changing within the groupings, based primarily upon the execution of the respective teams routine in the competition over a period of time. So I'd imagine they'd be much less chance of placement movement upsets and surprises as one would find in ( say ) baseball competition. But I 'm not all that knowledgable re. " dance teams " so I might have to defer to others here that might be more familar with this group of teams, and how they are judged ( if at all ). Edited June 17, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochester New York Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Comparing DCI to anything where people are paid to play (salary, scholarships, etc) is folly. It wouldn't even work for NCAA sports. Folly? That's rather harsh. Consider that designers are PAID by the corps, and that a significant portion of the score (including the ensemble captions, which one would reasonably expect to based solely on the effort of the "unpaid" members) is explicitly and directly tied to design quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 (edited) Folly? That's rather harsh. Consider that designers are PAID by the corps, and that a significant portion of the score (including the ensemble captions, which one would reasonably expect to based solely on the effort of the "unpaid" members) is explicitly and directly tied to design quality. Absolutely. The design staff is MOST crucial to placement in DCI. The design staff go out on the field of competition WAY, WAAAY more than any baseball coach or manager does for his baseball team. A baseball team that is talented can go very far on talent alone, even if the Coach is incompetent. But if we put a talented Drum Corps on the field, but their show design given to them is subpar, no amount of talent can make up for such a shortfall. That Corps is doomed. It might be able to rise up a bit, but if the show design is disjointed, not properly integrated, or is lacking in some respect, etc, that Corps will get buried compared to another Corps with similar marching member talent. Thus, this is just another reason we see pretty much little to no movement most years at the top in Drum Corps. The top Corps tend to keep the best show designers. Baseball teams might move Coaches, Managers around from team to team.. but Corps at the top keep a lot of their chief architects of the Corps shows and themes, intact from year to year.. and for many years too. I'd also imagine the insular nature of DCI Corps and the judging community relationship must help the top Corps too. I'm not saying anything is " fixed " here either. It's just that all these judges personally know these Corps designers. And the show designers that have been around the block for years and years know the personal likes and dsislikes of these judges too. Heck, the G-7 proposal if passed will allow these Corps to hand pick he judges they like and then take them along with them to judge them in their featured competitions. That certainly would give a competitive edge to the G-7 Corps over the non G-7 Corps. Can you imagine a baseball team ( say ) the NY Yankees selecting the umpiring crew for the World Series against ( say ) an upstart Texas Rangers team that might make the playoffs ? Wow, what baseball team wouldn't want to select the entire umpiring crew for the playoffs if MLB gave them THAT go ahead ? Edited June 17, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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