Can your World Class Show win Open Class

[supersop]

So DCI is about financial responsibility. Corps owe nothing more to the fans other than...well, these kids are certainly trying hard.

I guess I don't quite see it that way. A drum corps can save tons of cash and just stay at home...practice...perform in local concerts/contests and parades.

snip....

I know this is going to make me sound like I'm a fan of the G7 cabal, but that's not the case. SNIP .....

If I were marketing this activity as "World Class" I would make certain that every corps performing could be looked at as a step up from the local high school marching band. With finals...the hallmark of the DCI season happening in Indianapolis (same exact stadium as the major national marching band competition) I would want to claim this is step above what a young person can do in their scholastic program. Afterall, this is the member pool.

In some instances and for a few of the corps I've seen over the past two days, I'd have a difficult time making that case.

So this bounces around from ...

1. the 4 or 5 West Coast corps touring model doesn't make them World Class

2. You're not in favor of the G7 but you certainly sound like it.

3. If you can't put on a better show than Marion Catholic or PCEP you shouldn't be World Class.

I dunno Tom. I've never been at odds with you on this board ......... but some of this truly bothers me. DCI has an Open Class so the "smaller" or "less experienced" corps can have their own championship. The fact that they exclude those corps from World Class Quarterfinals, to me, is the biggest problem.

If you really wanted to make a competitive statement, then make it so only the corps that make Quarterfinals retain World Class status the following season. That would make you happy and honestly, it wouldn't bother me. But the only way to truly know who belongs in Semi Finals is by allowing the OC corps to compete head to head. If that has to take place on Quarterfinals night, then you'll complain that these corps only did 10 shows all year and achieved membership status while the rest were doing full tours.

Plain and simple, there's no easy answer to this, and the BoD has changed the rules a few times to try and find a solution. I think you can't have it both ways. Either way there will be a complaint and history has proven so. I also feel there should be a mid season regional that has EVERY corps in it ... so the top 25 corps at that point would compete in World Class for the remainder of the season. Or the top 17 .. whatever makes you happy. That gives the other corps some incentive to tour and get better in order to reach WC status mid season .. and then push even harder toward finals week.

[supersop]

No thread is pointless, get off your soapbox. Great idea though with the top 10 open class in quarters, that is a frikin great idea. We as a group should really push for that.

I'd say it is a bit pointless. We have gone 3 different ways on this argument over 3 decades. None of them have resulted in a solution that didn't have big problems or arguments attached to them.

When it was top 25 and OC competed in Quarters .. there were complaints that these OC corps didn't do as rigorous a touring model and didn't deserve a vote or higher pay for play because of this factor.

Then there was a revision that excluded OC to their own championship solely ... and that was a direct result of Magic making finals in 2002. The policy had already been changed to include financial stability and any corps who went inactive for more than one season could not compete in WC until they were competitively able to do so at Quarterfinals .... all was fine and good until one of those corps made Finals.

Now that it's based on financials and touring model in the month of July ..... there are complaints that corps are taking the majority of June OFF, getting more practice time at home and have a competitive advantage .. yet at least one of the corps Tom is pointing out is at the bottom of WC .. so I don't get the argument.

No matter what system you put in place, there are going to be corps that game the system and also do what is right for them financially. I can't argue their motives or decisions .. they're just playing by the rules that the Big Dogs pushed for. Now the Big Dogs want a bigger piece of the pie or they're leaving ......... in the end it's all pointless. There is no PERFECT SOLUTION to this debate .. and the voting members of DCI know it.

Edited July 24, 2010 by supersop

[gimpy]

Just a few random thoughts:

1. Assuming we're taking BDB and SCVC out of the equation, I think Scades and Pioneer would be duking it out for for first in open class anyway. (still need to see some OC shows, so that thought might change)

2. As has already been mentioned, Pioneer steadily improved their position in division one from 19th to 16th from 1997 to 2000(and almost broke 80 in '01) before the bottom dropped out in '02. In fact, Pioneer was 13th in drums in '99!

3. Last year was a rebuilding year for Cascades after inactivity in '08, and they have a stronger corps this year. '09 was their only last place finish. I don't think it's fair to throw them to the wolves.

4. Nobody has seen Surf since the 6th, so nobody knows what they're gonna look like after 3 weeks off. I suspect they will be scoring way better than 69s.

5. I think Tom's argument would have held more water back in the early/mid 00s when Pioneer and Troopers were cranking out 71s and 72s and corps like KK were struggling to break 70. The last place corps over the last couple of years have been fairly competitve with the other quarterfinalists.

edit: Also there always the chance that corps going through a bad patch will have a great resurgence. (see troopers)

Edited July 24, 2010 by gimpy

[Tom Brace]

The reason for a drum corps existence is not solely for the enjoyment of the fans. It is to help young, aspiring musicians to have a competitive experience available no where else. Each corps has a different mission and philosophy and, in many cases, will affect where they place in the standings. Success is not always the number on the scoreboard. When you look at how many young people and other World Class corps have benefitted from a corps like Pioneer, you would be astounded.

The Blue Devils mission is to score a perfect 100. They work very hard to achieve that and have scored over 99. Would you say they are successful? Of course you would -- they are the big-time winners.

The mission of a drum corps like Pioneer is to take virtually any young person that wants to better himself in music and marching skills and teach them how. They are one of the youngest corps, average age wise, in World Class. Almost every year many of the kids leave Pioneer to march with the upper echelon corps. They make those corps because of the skills learned while marching with Pioneer. Would you say that Pioneer is successful in their mission? I would say yes, very successful. The environment in this drum corps is to help each other and respect each other. Their standard of conduct is very, very high.

So, Mr. Brace, I submit to you that your perception of what drum and bugle corps is all about is skewed. It's supposed to be about the kids, not the fans. That is the main difference between your opinion and the majority of the drum corps community.

And -- Better every day is more than a catch phrase. It's how those kids live and work.

All of what you point to here can be accomplished in rehearsal. In practice.

Having FANS is skewing my viewpoint? Sorry, that's ridiculous logic. Without fans...as we learned from last year Indy and now...what...they're giving away tickets...YOU HAVE NO DRUM CORPS SHOWS.

So, continue to throw the fans under the bus. Continue to come up with devices to force a fan to watch a lame drum corps show. That's the silliness out here...not the view that if a corps can't put together a worthy World Class presentation for the fans, they should not be in World Class. DCI cannot continue to be a charity organization at the expense of the fans.

[Pinwiz]

I said this elsewhere.

Pioneer

Attention must be paid.

There are a lot of fans out there who lament that drum corps has gone away from its regional roots, that the activity has abandoned its original charge of teaching students how to play, and that the activity has been overrun by the "music snobs". In the same breath, they usually also argue that Pioneer should go down to Open Class.

Those people deserve a punch in the junk.

Pioneer was a strong contender in what was Division II, until their success required that they move up to Division I in the 1990s. But for a couple of exceptions, Pioneer has been at the bottom of the pack. And yet, they're still around. They're going strong while other corps have jumped up the ranks and then subsequently folded.

Pioneer takes everyone and teaches them how to march. Pioneer's influence spreads into every single corps in DCI. Pioneer wasn't even in last place in 2009!

[Tom Brace]

So this bounces around from ...

1. the 4 or 5 West Coast corps touring model doesn't make them World Class

2. You're not in favor of the G7 but you certainly sound like it.

3. If you can't put on a better show than Marion Catholic or PCEP you shouldn't be World Class.

I dunno Tom. I've never been at odds with you on this board ......... but some of this truly bothers me. DCI has an Open Class so the "smaller" or "less experienced" corps can have their own championship. The fact that they exclude those corps from World Class Quarterfinals, to me, is the biggest problem.

If you really wanted to make a competitive statement, then make it so only the corps that make Quarterfinals retain World Class status the following season. That would make you happy and honestly, it wouldn't bother me. But the only way to truly know who belongs in Semi Finals is by allowing the OC corps to compete head to head. If that has to take place on Quarterfinals night, then you'll complain that these corps only did 10 shows all year and achieved membership status while the rest were doing full tours.

Plain and simple, there's no easy answer to this, and the BoD has changed the rules a few times to try and find a solution. I think you can't have it both ways. Either way there will be a complaint and history has proven so. I also feel there should be a mid season regional that has EVERY corps in it ... so the top 25 corps at that point would compete in World Class for the remainder of the season. Or the top 17 .. whatever makes you happy. That gives the other corps some incentive to tour and get better in order to reach WC status mid season .. and then push even harder toward finals week.

I said before....I have no issue with all corps competing together...the Cadet corps become the only issue here as they do not have a mission statement allowing them to compete head to head with their parent corps. I just want something...or some other corps pushing other corps to do better with their on the field presentations.

[gimpy]

If people want to miss the early shows they just show up 30 minutes late. They've been doing it for years.

[DrillmanSop06]

Go stand out in the lot with the rest of G7s "fans" while those crappy undeserving corps are performing. That way, you get to see REAL World Class drum corps twice without having to tolerate those shows that turn you off as the ever important "fan."

Psh...This IS a joke.

[Tom Brace]

So, the excuse that some people are proffering here is that if a drum corps is financial sound it deserves to be World Class.

I believe that competitive excellence has more to do with World Class than most people would admit.

Some have accused me as being a "G7 lackey." Nothing could be further from the truth.

What the G7 did and are doing is in detriment to other corps who have for years had incredible audience appeal and fan support. For instance...Boston Crusaders and Madison Scouts as two examples.

Also, let me give you an example of a corps who has a great balance of fan appeal and great financial soundness....Blue Devils. I could also mention Crown, Cavies, Colts and many others.

So, to come with an excuse that a corps has financial soundness and that merits being World Class...sorry, unless you are giving fans $100 a pop to see your corps, you don't meet my ideals of what equals a World Class corps.

Now, as I have continued to point out in this thread...this is my opinion, my interpretation, my analysis. It doesn't have to be yours.

[Tom Brace]

Go stand out in the lot with the rest of G7s "fans" while those crappy undeserving corps are performing. That way, you get to see REAL World Class drum corps twice without having to tolerate those shows that turn you off as the ever important "fan."

Psh...This IS a joke.

I watched every moment of every corps over the past two days on the FN. Yes, my location does not give me a view of many corps live. And, unfortunately, I only have time and tickets for semis and finals this year (both finals, by the way).