talent vs vehicle

[ContraFart]

I am being arbitrary about which corps I chose to compare, but I thought Phantom was a good choice since I have heard over and over again that this years show had "design issues".

I am posing this question because over the past week or so, I have become discouraged with the fact that I feel championships are not won on the field anymore. I feel that any corps in the top 6 would have won with BDs design. Basically what I am saying is that the talent level is so close among the top 6 to 9 corps, that winning and losing championships is almost entirely out of the kids hands.

[cjp87]

With only one read of Phantom's show, take this with a grain of salt.

I will say no, but I will also say Phantom would've done worse with BD's show. I say this because while yes, a superior design is necessary (remember, much of the score is the "what they're doing" score) for a championship, the performers must maintain cleanliness and performance levels to match that show design. I don't believe Phantom had the design to take down anyone from the top 3 this year, but I also think that the corps above them were performing at higher levels with more difficult shows.

If BD were to march Phantom's show, I imagine it would be cleaner, in fact just as nearly perfect as their own show was, if not moreso. But because the Cavies had a better scoring design alongside great execution, the probably would have ousted the Devils on repertoire.

Conversely, if Phantom were to march a more difficult show (BD, Cavies), they would be less polished, thus scoring significantly lower than the boost from the "what they're doing" score would offset. So, the gamble of putting together this championship design is making sure the corps can still perfect it, something BD has managed to do pretty consistently as of late, and others may have fallen by the wayside (SCV, Cadets).

So basically, I think that yes, a championship level show is necessary to win nowadays, but no, anyone in the top 7 could not pull it off if they swapped designs during camp.

[ajwdad]

Phantom had one of my favorite shows this year. But, it did not have enough substance to beat Cavies, and clean would not have been enough. As it was, Phantom won the only caption that BD lost. BD would have been cleaner, but the Cavies show had far more substance. I agree with the previous post.

[ContraFart]

I have to disagree with how difficult you think BDs show was.....it was very complicated, not very difficult. I know thats a nuanced statement, but I believe it to be true. Like I said I chose Phantoms show sort of arbitrarily and you can insert any other corps in the top 6 into this discussion.

[ContraFart]

and conversely would crown or cadets won with BDs design?

[PepsiTwist]

This may be a little off topic, but I always thought it'd be cool to have something like this happen, where each corps will take a show/performance from one year, the top 12 (split top 6 then bottom 6) will draw from a hat and whoever's show they get, they'll have to perform that exact same horn book, drum book, guard work, drill, etc. the next season. NO modifications or changes allowed. :) They can wear their own uniforms, of course, but have to perform the exact same show that was performed by the chosen corps.

I know this would or could NEVER happen, but I have always wondered what it would be like to see an "apples" corps do an "oranges" show. The only two that stick out in my mind at the moment are if Cavies and BD swapped shows for a year... what if 2011 had them playing each other's 2010 shows? Now THAT would be something else. :)

Yeah, yeah... probably not really adding to this discussion, but since we're talking hypotheticals of corps playing another corps show, I thought I'd share that thought I've had for years. I know there are many reason why that couldn't and never would happen, but it does make you wonder.

By the way - I voted "No"

Edited August 16, 2010 by PepsiTwist

[cjp87]

I will disagree on the complicated and not difficult assertion. Get in really close to what those marchers are doing on the field, and you'll notice how difficult it really is. One thing about the marching style BD employs is that when it's perfected, it makes everything look effortless despite intense levels of difficulty. If your leg muscles are strong enough to carry you properly, it's actually one of the most efficient (in terms of body fatigue and wasted energy) styles out there.

and conversely would crown or cadets won with BDs design?

I don't believe so, as neither of them were as clean as BD (not even really in the same ballpark), and while the Cadets had some breakneck drill on occasion, I still don't think anyone's show was more difficult than the Devils' show, though some were definitely similarly difficult, perhaps in different ways (Cavies, parts of Cadets, Coats).

The fact is, the Blue Devils out-perfected everyone this year, and they did it with arguably the hardest (one of in the least) show designs, and that's exactly what it takes to win a championship in my opinion.

[PepsiTwist]

Another twist to this topic - let's say 1993 Star and Cadets traded shows. Would the Cadets have still won had THEY played the Bartók/Barber show? :)

[ContraFart]

I will disagree on the complicated and not difficult assertion. Get in really close to what those marchers are doing on the field, and you'll notice how difficult it really is. One thing about the marching style BD employs is that when it's perfected, it makes everything look effortless despite intense levels of difficulty. If your leg muscles are strong enough to carry you properly, it's actually one of the most efficient (in terms of body fatigue and wasted energy) styles out there.

I don't believe so, as neither of them were as clean as BD (not even really in the same ballpark), and while the Cadets had some breakneck drill on occasion, I still don't think anyone's show was more difficult than the Devils' show, though some were definitely similarly difficult, perhaps in different ways (Cavies, parts of Cadets, Coats).

The fact is, the Blue Devils out-perfected everyone this year, and they did it with arguably the hardest (one of in the least) show designs, and that's exactly what it takes to win a championship in my opinion.

your making it sound that the demand of BDs show was 4 or 5 notches above everyone else, and I do not believe that to be true for a second. Yes BD has great marching technique (when they actually march),but the leg muscles of the BD kids are not better or worse than any of the other corps out there.

The premise of this entire poll is that I believe the talent level of the top 5 or 6 corps to be just about on level with each other and that the vehicle has now become more important than the performance.....that championships are now won in september and october and not in july and august.

Edited August 16, 2010 by ContraFart

[corpsband]

and conversely would crown or cadets won with BDs design?

More interestingly how would cadets or BD or other top 6 fared with crown's show?