Who do you think has had the best hornline in the last 5 seasons?

[Drum Korps Fan Man]

What is your definition of "huge sound" or "open"???

Hard to describe, but the best way I can think is to say to listen to Bud Herseth, Doc Severinsen, Chris Botti, or, if you want a low brass example, Doug Head (MN Orchestra Euphonium). Another way would be to say that the sound contains tons of overtones, as opposed to just the fundamental frequency (obviously no one can play with ONLY the fundamental, but you get my point).

And are you saying it is easier to play more "OPEN" as you say when you have a darker sound???

I am saying that, in my experience as a brass player, when I started playing with a more open, large sound, my tone got darker. Once I learned more about the technique of playing my horn, I could choose to make the tone brighter while still playing open, but it was harder than if I closed the sound down to make it smaller.

In short: 'large' and 'bright' is harder than 'small' and 'bright'.

Even shorter: reverse your words: I think it is easier to play 'darker' when you play more 'open'.

Please explain that. I coach many brass players and find that to be COMPLETELY false. Openness or fatness of sound has NOTHING to do with timbre.

You're right- they do not have anything to do with each other, directly. However, indirectly, I feel that one can affect the other in terms of how the horn is being played. In other words: being 'open' does not necessarily mean you will be 'dark', but it may make it more likely. Similarly, playing 'not open' does not necessarily mean you will be bright, but it makes it more likely.

the 'size' of the sound, when I talk about it, has nothing to do with volume, which it sounds like you may be- I don't know, but that is how I read your post.

I agree that BD has a very loud, powerful brass line, and I think that they do what they do very well, I just happen to prefer Crown's approach to their choice of music. That isn't BD's fault, and I'm glad I get to listen to both- DCI fans and audiences would miss out if the two corps tried to imitate each other.

[Bruckner8]

Hard to describe, but the best way I can think is to say to listen to Bud Herseth, Doc Severinsen, Chris Botti, or, if you want a low brass example, Doug Head (MN Orchestra Euphonium). Another way would be to say that the sound contains tons of overtones, as opposed to just the fundamental frequency (obviously no one can play with ONLY the fundamental, but you get my point).

If we can agree that a Clarinet is a darker-sounding woodwind (except its Clarino register, way up high), then would it surprise you to learn that a Clarinet's spectrum is missing half the overtones of a brass instrument?

ON this page, the author states "The absence [of] even harmonics is (part of) what is responsible for the "warm" or "dark" sound of a clarinet compared to the "bright" sound of a saxophone. "

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/clarinet.html

Another cool page on that site is a saxophone recording page played by the same person on the same note on the same horn, but purposefully trying to change the color. You be the judge of what makes it "dark" or "bright" and then look at the spectra.

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/sax_sounds/index.html

I'm not an expert on this by any means, but I'm trying to burst the myth that says "more overtones = darker sound." In my experience (orchestral instruments, drum corps and pipe organs), good, rich, fundamental dark sound is produced by lots of overtones in the lowest parts of the spectra. I know tubas and string basses (section) are sounding good when I hear octaves and 12ths screaming from the sound-mass. If I start to hear higher overtones, it does get "clearer" but to me it also "sounds brighter." Player-to-player matching of intonation is the #1 factor to success; Individual good sound is #2.

I've posted this before, and didn't go to DCP Jail, so I suppose it's OK, but it's Bluecoats Tubas (16) laying down a concert F at warmup in 2009. You can hear the F and C an octave and 12th higher, respectively, loud and clear, for the entire time, even when the rest of the hornline is changing chords.

The real question is: What does one teach/do to get more or less overtones?

Finally, read this page, if only the very bottom: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/sound.spectrum.html

[Drum Korps Fan Man]

ON this page, the author states "The absence [of] even harmonics is (part of) what is responsible for the "warm" or "dark" sound of a clarinet compared to the "bright" sound of a saxophone. "

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/clarinet.html

I'm no physics genius, but I do remember talking in my electronic music class about how changing the specific types of overtones included in a sound changes the waveform, so the fact that it is even overtones which create a 'dark' tone is good knowledge to have, but I guess doesn't surprice me that much- overtones is overtones.

I'm not an expert on this by any means, but I'm trying to burst the myth that says "more overtones = darker sound." In my experience (orchestral instruments, drum corps and pipe organs), good, rich, fundamental dark sound is produced by lots of overtones in the lowest parts of the spectra. I know tubas and string basses (section) are sounding good when I hear octaves and 12ths screaming from the sound-mass. If I start to hear higher overtones, it does get "clearer" but to me it also "sounds brighter."

I agree that the low register is important to generate good tone- it was always explained to me that the lower instruments have better tone (no reason given, I always just went along like the sheep I was ), so we (the upper instruments) should listen to them for tone and match down.

However, I would say that you- kind of- have provided evidence against the blanket statement "more overtones=darker sound". I submit that, given this material which you have found (and I love, by the way- thank you- in all seriousness), we should amend the statement to "more of the the right overtones=darker sound"

Player-to-player matching of intonation is the #1 factor to success; Individual good sound is #2.

Yep. I agree. That's why the blue devils, crown, cav's, et al. sound good in their own way. I would be VERY interested in getting a show of the 'dark tone quality' corps (Crown, Blue Stars come to mind, as I know the staff there more than other corps), and comparing the hornlines, then doing the same for the 'bright sound' corps.

I've posted this before, and didn't go to DCP Jail, so I suppose it's OK, but it's Bluecoats Tubas (16) laying down a concert F at warmup in 2009. You can hear the F and C an octave and 12th higher, respectively, loud and clear, for the entire time, even when the rest of the hornline is changing chords.

The real question is: What does one teach/do to get more or less overtones?

Oh boy.... I don't have a clue. I suppose I could buy a spectrometer and sit in a room figuring it out, but I really don't have the money or the time

On an almost-related tangental note- I was at I and E this year and watched some of the players tuning, and on the tuner there were dials for each individual pitch. I sat for about thirty minutes and just watched how in tune the overtones were kinda geeky, but it was a nice break from listening to solos and watching guard work, and it provided me a chance to eat my lunch

[Elmo Blatch]

The real question is: What does one teach/do to get more or less overtones?

...by changing the composition of the metal used in the brass. I would be interested in seeing a comparison of the composition material used in G bugles vs. B-flat bugles. :)

Some people even subscribe to the belief that the cryogenic freezing of brass instruments anneals the metal in such a way that it lessens extraneous vibration, thereby allowing overtones to be more clearly heard.

Article on cryogenically freezing brass instruments

[TrumpetJ]

Crown, Crown and Crown.

Also, I don't get where the trash can analogy started because it's really bad. Not once have I heard a brash, out of tune hornline and thought of two metal cans colliding. Seriously, I don't see how out of tune trumpets compare to two metal objects slamming together making a loud, crashing bang sound.

[ewubrassman1]

I'm going to break it down:

In '06 I loved (in order):

1) Cavaliers

2) Phantom

3) Blue Devils

In '07 I loved (in order):

1) Phantom

2) Crown

3) Bluecoats

4) Blue Devils

In '08 I loved (in order):

1) Bluecoats

2) Crown

3) Phantom

In '09 I loved (in order):

1) Vanguard

2) Phantom

3) Crown

In '10 I loved (in order):

1) Bluecoats

2) Crown

3) Scouts

So...1) Bluecoats

2) Crown

3) Phantom

It's just an opinion. Don't hate.

EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY!

[luvs me sum mello!]

Crown

[FuriousSoundbyte]

In your opinion of course! Not mine!

We can agree to disagree.

However, describing these hornlines as a "Chainsaw" is a downright insult to the MMs who worked so hard on those shows.

In the future, please just say "I didn't like their sound because of A and B."

A and B representing MUSICAL or TECHNICAL issues.

Thanks and stay classy DCP!

You're right. Because the gold and silver medals they won those years, and the overwhelming crowd approval is going to be overshadowed by a few opinions that they may or may not read on DCP. Poor guys.

[mgarside83]

I have loved Phantom's brass sound the last 5 years. However, the last 3 years Crown has been vey impressive too. Bluecoats are starting to sound great lately as well. BD has great players, and demonstrates great technical skills, but their shows tend to not demonstrate a very "Wow listen to that brass line!" moment. I appreciate their technical skill and I think they consistently have the most talented players in DCI. However, as a brass line, IMO; Phantom is number 1. Then Crown, then BD, then Bluecoats. I loved SCV in 09 but yearn for more consistency on their part.

I'm a drummer, but those are my thoughts.

[WOOHOO]

In your opinion of course! Not mine!

We can agree to disagree.

However, describing these hornlines as a "Chainsaw" is a downright insult to the MMs who worked so hard on those shows.

In the future, please just say "I didn't like their sound because of A and B."

A and B representing MUSICAL or TECHNICAL issues.

Thanks and stay classy DCP!

I don't think that is an insult to the MM's. They can handle those criticisms.

Since I really don't know, when was the last time Phantom won the Jim Ott award?