Jeff Ream Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Cry me a river. The above post is reminiscent of the jokes about drummers we used to tell at the School of Music back in the day (ie- there are musicians, and then there are drummers....)So you're telling us that a line of (mostly) college music majors, working on the same 11 minutes of show since November, and especially from May-August rehearsing hours a day (of the same 11 minutes of music...... of which there is probably a 2-3 minute ballad section where they don't play a note), are incapable of maintaining a tempo and entering together unless one (or all) of them bellows like a walrus getting a prostate exam? Puh-leeze. The music may be more "rhythmically complex", but count 1 is still count 1. Even if you want your line to dut, why on earth would you want them to do it loud enough that it could be heard from the stands? That point has been brought up by multiple posters on this thread but completely ignored in your response. I would say that in the battery you are less likely to find music majors than anywhere but the guard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 As one who had the pleasure of writing a review of Frank's music theory book for sound engineers, I believe he understands the principals of sonic theory and reality more than perhaps anyone else in the activity. Seriously; check out his resumé. He's got a wealth of experience that more than qualifies him to discuss such matters.The fact that anyone believes that LOUD dutting that can be heard in the audience—distracting from the music—is a good thing is something I pray I will never comprehend. i've been told to do it as a performer ( the loud enough for the world to hear) and I hated it. i still to this day cringe when I put that cd in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 well this ties into my feelings about the lot...a lot more groovehappens there than on the field. I think he's commenting more on arrangment style than anything with that. But I have thought more and more for years far more emphasis is put on cool and groove in the lot than the show....so sure yo see these lines play all these cool exercises out there, but they blow tap rolls at finals on the field. I respect Frank a ton, but the things drum ensembles are doing today are light years ahead of what we did "back in the day"... LIGHT YEARS.I marched in one of those jonez lines he's referring to, and I always had a snare drummer to my left and one to my right. Now, you seldom see 'em marching together. They're spread out all over the field, split up into pockets of 3, 4, or whatever, and their interp of the downbeat often has to be different to lineup up front. It ain't the same... it ain't even close. They SHOULD NOT be heard out front (and I agree... penalize 'em if they are), but they're a necessary evil given today's ensemble writing & staging. In terms of the Dr. Beat, it's a rehearsal technique. We've all used it. I agree with the volume, and you're nutty if you don't work equal time without, but it's still useful and certainly not the devil's invention. As far as the "drum lines don't groove" comment, I'm not sure what lines he's referring to that "did" groove. Line warm-ups in the lot these days are nothing but groove. Every line has 'em, and a lot of 'em are pretty **** good. The lines in the late 70's / early 80's certainly had nothing on 'em... maybe lines were groovin' earlier than that and I missed 'em. I kind of understand the "hatred of the dut", but I don't get the "no groove" assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 That's my first laugh of the new day. "Anti-dutting sentiment." As if there's pro-dutting sentiment? A group of musicians who are in favor of people moving on the field going "dut dut dut" ???Nope - this one is purely about music - and dutting ain't music. Look at what the top (and for that matter bottom) groups are going through to produce a highly musical aesthetically pleasing sound that emulates and in some cases surpasses the finest professional ensembles. Then add robot vocalizations. It simply makes no sense, musically. Don't worry about the couple of Grammys that Frank has. Just show me the Grammys or any other awards being handed to someone who thinks "dutting" is musical. And if you counter with "DCI championship rings" I'm giving you the Conan O'Brien Victory response. For me to poop on.... There are plenty of people in favor of dutting, most of them drummers, who understand why they're necessary. A horn playing trying to weigh in on the need for drumlines to dut is the epitome of ignorance. You just don't have a clue why it's necessary unless you've marched in a line. There are two groups of anti dutting people. Non-drummers, or drummers who didn't do it that way back when your average 12 minute show contained about 20 or less drill moves with nothing more challenging than an 8 to 5 step size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrownStarr Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) Can we all take a step back for a second? I think there's two issues at hand here, the necessity and the volume of dutting. What I'm seeing in this topic over and over again is people conflating the two: either someone turned off by the volume and then generalizing to the conclusion that we need to get rid of dutting altogether, or someone (especially the drumline vets here who've used them) seeing an attack on loud duts as an attack on the usage of duts and responding in kind. I think we'll all find it easier to agree, or at least be calm and reasonable about it, if we can recognize that these two issues are distinct and not keep smudging them together. Edited October 14, 2010 by CrownStarr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Can we all take a step back for a second? I think there's two issues at hand here, the necessity and the volume of dutting. What I'm seeing in this topic over and over again is people conflating the two: either someone turned off by the volume and then generalizing to the conclusion that we need to get rid of dutting altogether, or someone (especially the drumline vets here who've used them) seeing an attack on loud duts as an attack on the usage of duts and responding in kind.I think we'll all find it easier to agree, or at least be calm and reasonable about it, if we can recognize that these two issues are distinct and not keep smudging them together. Yep. I posted earlier in this thread that they were necessary, but that there was no reason for them to be heard from the stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Can we all take a step back for a second? I think there's two issues at hand here, the necessity and the volume of dutting. What I'm seeing in this topic over and over again is people conflating the two: either someone turned off by the volume and then generalizing to the conclusion that we need to get rid of dutting altogether, or someone (especially the drumline vets here who've used them) seeing an attack on loud duts as an attack on the usage of duts and responding in kind.I think we'll all find it easier to agree, or at least be calm and reasonable about it, if we can recognize that these two issues are distinct and not keep smudging them together. We have the technology to make everyone happy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeOtherJoe Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 well this ties into my feelings about the lot...a lot more groovehappens there than on the field. I think he's commenting more on arrangment style than anything with that. But I have thought more and more for years far more emphasis is put on cool and groove in the lot than the show....so sure yo see these lines play all these cool exercises out there, but they blow tap rolls at finals on the field. The bolded part is my take as well, in terms of reasoning. Difficult to convey groove when the activity on the whole is striving for constant movement, constant velocity, constant transition, and 826 bpm. Yet, when the writing and parts are there, the groove is there... these young guys know full well how to groove. The point I disagreed with was the tie in to duts and met practice. To be fair though, the article has to be a bit incendiary. If it were titled "Tone Down the Duts, Turn Down the Dr. a Bit, and Spend More Time Sans Met", we'd have about 2 pages of conversation filled with "yup", "amen", and "yesiree". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawker Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Personal attacks have been removed from the thread. Let's try to stay on the straight and narrow with this, regardless of your stance on duts. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrownStarr Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 Yep. I posted earlier in this thread that they were necessary, but that there was no reason for them to be heard from the stands. That you did, but given the pages and pages of argument after your post, I felt like it needed reinforcement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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