Determining Placement etc.

[TheClutch]

What do you think Determines placement (or quality of a corps) and to what amount.. you can be as specific or as vague as you want to be.

Mine is pretty vague.

5% management team

60% Show design

12.5% Staff

22.5% Talent

Explanation.

Management team determines comfort. seems trivial.. but I know the more comfortable we were, the less there was to complain about.. the harder we worked.

Show Design. BIG DEAL. if a show isnt good, corps will place lower, no matter what. if a less talented corps does a better show...they could place higher...Example: I feel like BC had a higher talent level then the Cavaliers this year (knowing many people in both corps), but I enjoyed the Cavaliers show much better.

Talent. - Duh

Staff- The staff can only do so much with what they have... but they can do THAT much..

[Drum Korps Fan Man]

5% management team

60% Show design

12.5% Staff

22.5% Talent

So... not to be that guy... but where does the 'politics' or 'benefit of the doubt' fit in here? Or do you not believe that?

Because I know that when I marched, we did things that were much more difficult than the people above us and weren't given as much credit for it as simple things that they did...

So either show design doesn't enter into it as much as you think, or there is another factor somewhere.

Not trying to start a fight, just my .02

[BlooContraGuy]

If there is one thing I learned about drum corps in the past few years, its that difficulty doesn't have NEARLY the impact on score as we'd like it to. it just comes down to whether you are achieving your show or not. Plain and simple.

[jplattSCV]

If there is one thing I learned about drum corps in the past few years, its that difficulty doesn't have NEARLY the impact on score as we'd like it to. it just comes down to whether you are achieving your show or not. Plain and simple.

Right. Some of the best song writers write the simplest songs. And difficulty in drum corps just makes some things harder to read. And lastly, some of the seemingly simple things are the hardest. Entrances. unisons, straight lines, etc.

During the last 20 years the corps that have had runs of success (meaning winning it all) have had one thing in common. They have had shows whose staging made the shows easy to follow. Even the craziest Blue Devils shows still pointed you to something obvious most of the time. Cadets nearly always have great staging and Cavaliers certainly did in the years where they won.

So, to me the overall show organization or staging is critical. It will affect every caption if not done well.

My exhibit A for bad staging is the 1992 SCV show. We had terrible percussion scores that were in large part due to terrible staging which made things much more difficult than they should have been for a line that was literally overflowing with talent. Same drumline from 1991 that won high percussion in Dallas with the addition of a 3 indviduals champion performers and one more who wrote another's champion solo a few years later. And there were also 5 future top 6 caption heads in that line. So that also tells you how much I think individual talent matters relative to staging.

Edited November 26, 2010 by jplattSCV

[TheClutch]

So... not to be that guy... but where does the 'politics' or 'benefit of the doubt' fit in here? Or do you not believe that?

Because I know that when I marched, we did things that were much more difficult than the people above us and weren't given as much credit for it as simple things that they did...

So either show design doesn't enter into it as much as you think, or there is another factor somewhere.

Not trying to start a fight, just my .02

Like i said.. Mine is pretty vague, but you can be as detailed as you want.

What would you put the percentages as?

[va9590jm]

Wow we need the season to start already...

[perc2100]

If there is one thing I learned about drum corps in the past few years, its that difficulty doesn't have NEARLY the impact on score as we'd like it to. it just comes down to whether you are achieving your show or not. Plain and simple.

A common misconception with DCP folks is that "difficulty" is some kind of end-all, be-all when it comes to design. In fact, the single most important element when it comes to design is EFFECT. A show can be difficult and still not generate enough effect (especially if it is performed at a sub-par level). A show can be not-so-difficult but still generate a ton of effect, thus achieving far more from both sides of the sheets ("easy" enough to be achievable by membership and therefor gaining achievement credit, design being effective and therefor gaining credit).

While difficulty does play into a score/placement, it is more a 'tie-breaker' (to WAY oversimplify). For example, if Blue Devils and Cavaliers are achieving the same exact amount of effect at the same performance level in a judge's opinion in his caption, then the corps that is achieving more from a comp. stand-point will probably get the nod by a .1 or so. That, I imagine, it probably not super common. What is obviously more common, is a corps is attempting more than their membership (or staff) can clean, argues that the difficulty = effect point, and then takes a hit on BOTH sides of the sheets (and then that corps' fans come on here and complain that their "harder" show is unfairly losing to a corps performing an "easier" show )

[drumno5]

Because I know that when I marched, we did things that were much more difficult than the people above us and weren't given as much credit for it as simple things that they did...

Likewise, not trying to start a fight, but:

How do you "know" that your show was harder? Did "everyone" tell you so? Since the dawn of time, folks have complained that they're playing/maraching the hardest show but aren't being rewarded because of politics, incompetent judging, or what-have-you. Hey, I've voiced that gripe myself, on more than one occasion! And even if your show was the hardest, does difficulty automatically equate to superior show design?

Let's face it: everyone thinks their show is harder/cleaner/better designed. But if that were true, there'd be a 17 way tie for first place every year.

Peace,

Fred O.

[BlooContraGuy]

A common misconception with DCP folks is that "difficulty" is some kind of end-all, be-all when it comes to design. In fact, the single most important element when it comes to design is EFFECT. A show can be difficult and still not generate enough effect (especially if it is performed at a sub-par level). A show can be not-so-difficult but still generate a ton of effect, thus achieving far more from both sides of the sheets ("easy" enough to be achievable by membership and therefor gaining achievement credit, design being effective and therefor gaining credit).

While difficulty does play into a score/placement, it is more a 'tie-breaker' (to WAY oversimplify). For example, if Blue Devils and Cavaliers are achieving the same exact amount of effect at the same performance level in a judge's opinion in his caption, then the corps that is achieving more from a comp. stand-point will probably get the nod by a .1 or so. That, I imagine, it probably not super common. What is obviously more common, is a corps is attempting more than their membership (or staff) can clean, argues that the difficulty = effect point, and then takes a hit on BOTH sides of the sheets (and then that corps' fans come on here and complain that their "harder" show is unfairly losing to a corps performing an "easier" show )

You said it much better than I did lol

[Drum Korps Fan Man]

Like i said.. Mine is pretty vague, but you can be as detailed as you want.

What would you put the percentages as?

My guestimations would be:

10% perception of the corps- combination of politics/competitive inertia/all that ethereal stuff that may or may not exist (I believe it does because we all talk about it- if we didn't talk about it, maybe it wouldn't exist)

10% staff talent

20% talent

10% Administration

40% attitudes of the students

15% attitudes of the staff

5% how much the corps 'gels'- do they mesh? is there synergy? etc.

some of mine are rather vague, but I tried to describe what I mean...

If there is one thing I learned about drum corps in the past few years, its that difficulty doesn't have NEARLY the impact on score as we'd like it to. it just comes down to whether you are achieving your show or not. Plain and simple.

yeah pretty much.

Likewise, not trying to start a fight, but:

How do you "know" that your show was harder? Did "everyone" tell you so? Since the dawn of time, folks have complained that they're playing/maraching the hardest show but aren't being rewarded because of politics, incompetent judging, or what-have-you. Hey, I've voiced that gripe myself, on more than one occasion! And even if your show was the hardest, does difficulty automatically equate to superior show design?

Let's face it: everyone thinks their show is harder/cleaner/better designed. But if that were true, there'd be a 17 way tie for first place every year.

Peace,

Fred O.

You are absolutely correct- and I knew when I made my post that this would be everyone's first thought

I don't mean to make it sound like my team (which I don't make obvious simply so my opinions don't reflect on them) was in 8th place and should have been 1st, but there were times when we were 9th and should have been 8th or 7th, and while I know I am biased, in those years after finals in my corps jacket I had multiple people from other staffs come up to me without prompting and say that we should have beaten this or that team.

Back to the topic... Again, clearly not everything in one show will be more difficult than another show, but taken as a package, if a show is at 180+ for the whole time, (double timing the ballad), with loud chords as well as many soft, exposed sections, and another show is at 160ish the whole time at mezzo dynamics constantly, the fast one will be more difficult.

And now, to cover my behind some more: I don't mean to badmouth shows like I just described- I actually enjoy many of them- but to say that a slow, medium-volume show is just as difficult as a fast, soft-loud-soft-loud show is ludicrous.

AGAIN: I LIKE BOTH KINDS, but we have to recognize difficulty somewhere.