Stick Tricks!

[actucker]

I'm curious as to know what your definition of "stupid flashy" is.

Well this conversation has evolved a little. To be clear, I consider pretty much all stick tricks to be stupid flash. I have yet to see a stick trick that actually added something meaningful to a show. As for my general point of view on the line between visual creativity and stupid gimmicks that are a ploy for GE (which is a different conversation altogether), I loved Spartacus, but hated "little geoffry" if that tells you anything. There's a fine line. It gets crossed far to often.

[skewerz]

Well this conversation has evolved a little. To be clear, I consider pretty much all stick tricks to be stupid flash. I have yet to see a stick trick that actually added something meaningful to a show. As for my general point of view on the line between visual creativity and stupid gimmicks that are a ploy for GE (which is a different conversation altogether), I loved Spartacus, but hated "little geoffry" if that tells you anything. There's a fine line. It gets crossed far to often.

Spartacus had way, WAY more stupid flash than Little Geoffrey could ever hope to produce. It's just that Cadets did it in a way that YOU didn't like it...well, a lot of people got sick of it, to, but it's back to what YOU want again, instead of what the crowd wants.

Stick tricks highlight the PERCEIVED skill of a drum line. 90% of the people in the audience at a show aren't > semi-professional outdoor field percussionists.

As for your assessment of the "average drum corps fan", I think you underestimate their ability to understand what is going on. I see it a lot especially in the younger fans. People are tired of seeing contrived and pointless fluff at the sacrifice of actual music. They're sick of being beaten over the head by show concepts because the design staffs think that we're not intelligent enough to interpret (or worse, they're only interested in a score).

examples? It sounds like you are describing 2010 BD, but then again, I'm a hater, apparently.

There isn't a drum corps in every town, playing parades for the masses in the summer and needing flash and silliness to attract an audience. We play for a more select audience, who is much more informed, and they are capable of sorting good music from great music.

No...corps are still performing for the same people. As I noted in another topic, I started watching shows in 1977. I am now 44. The crowd that was watching AND participating in drum corps in the 70's, 80's, and 90's are still the same people watching drum corps today, and are still the majority of the watchers.

If you play great music, you won't need stick flips, gimmicky characters or voice overs to get their attention. Play great music, march great drill, and tell a story, and they'll show up.

Why march? It would be so much easier to play incredible music if the "kids" didn't have to worry about marching. Just set up in an arc and play glorious music. Oh, wait..it's drum corps.

The funny thing is, nobody was talking about corps having problems making enough money from tickets before we started adding stupid things like ridiculous sound systems and gimmicky props to boost our scores. If we corps didn't have to pay for all of that, they wouldn't have to charge their students 3-4 thousand dollars a summer, and they might be doing just fine with the crowds we have.

agree completely with the first part. 2nd part is a little shaky. There will always be inflation, so whether the corps had to buy that brand new shiny synthesizer or not, it's still gonna cost more to participate.

I'm a musician and music lover first, long before I'm a drum corps person, so if there is something that is getting in the way of the music, I'm not a big fan of it. Stick tricks fall into that category. I'm not opposed to pushing the envelope and challenging ourselves, but let me ask you this. When was the last time you heard a drum line truly play well at piano? Not the typical 3 inches which would cut through your average brass line, but actual piano. When was the last time you heard a brass line truly address some complex harmony and play it in tune? When was the last time you saw a truly new visual idea on the field? The moments are getting fewer and further between.

I'm a musician and a music lover, too, and I'm a big fan of stick tricks. As far as drum lines playing at P...they do it swell in the concert hall, but this ain't no indoor setting. This is the big outdoors (unless they are playing in a dome, of course) and P just don't get it in the drum corp world. If the drum line is playin' P, what does the horn line have to be playing in order to hear the drum line? Musicians have always had to modify their play style to fit the outdoor, drum corps setting, horns and drums alike.

From everything I've read from you, it's as if you WANT it to be like it was back in the 80's, when the brass line truly addressed some complex harmonies, and there were no electronics sucking up the bankroll of the corps. Snare drums sounded like snare drums, instead of ceramic tiles, and some of the very great drum lines were playing complex beats.

Perhaps I just don't understand and need more splainin' done to me...What to you is stupid flash? I mentioned lots of things that might be, but the only thing you mentioned was "stick tricks". Is a spear to the conductor stupid flash? Mirrors? Doing push-ups? Company fronts? Cross to cross? Crown's laying down leg work? Horse races?

Edited January 22, 2011 by skewerz

[actucker]

Spartacus had way, WAY more stupid flash than Little Geoffrey could ever hope to produce. It's just that Cadets did it in a way that YOU didn't like it...well, a lot of people got sick of it, to, but it's back to what YOU want again, instead of what the crowd wants.

That's just not true at all. Geoffrey was a slick way to produce GE without having to play good music. Spartacus never lacked fantastic music, executed at an extremely high level, and the visual ideas simply added to that. There's a difference between augmenting and replacing.

Stick tricks highlight the PERCEIVED skill of a drum line. 90% of the people in the audience at a show aren't > semi-professional outdoor field percussionists.

Again, if the stick tricks weren't there, and they were still playing insane music, people wouldn't miss the tricks.

examples? It sounds like you are describing 2010 BD, but then again, I'm a hater, apparently.

There were things about BD 2010 I liked, and things I didn't.

No...corps are still performing for the same people. As I noted in another topic, I started watching shows in 1977. I am now 44. The crowd that was watching AND participating in drum corps in the 70's, 80's, and 90's are still the same people watching drum corps today, and are still the majority of the watchers.

That's precisely the attitude that's killing drum corps. Have you looked around at a crowd at a show lately? Its shouldn't be about what the 44 years olds want any more. It should always be about what the next generation wants. That's how the activity stays alive. I can tell you right now, my students (who are hugely into drum corps) are smart enough to know the difference between silly gimmicks and actual music and performance.

Why march? It would be so much easier to play incredible music if the "kids" didn't have to worry about marching. Just set up in an arc and play glorious music. Oh, wait..it's drum corps.

So stick tricks are part of what drum corps is all about?

agree completely with the first part. 2nd part is a little shaky. There will always be inflation, so whether the corps had to buy that brand new shiny synthesizer or not, it's still gonna cost more to participate.

Inflation? Yes. Outrageous price hikes to the tune of quadrupling fees over the course of 10 years? Not so much.

I'm a musician and a music lover, too, and I'm a big fan of stick tricks. As far as drum lines playing at P...they do it swell in the concert hall, but this ain't no indoor setting. This is the big outdoors (unless they are playing in a dome, of course) and P just don't get it in the drum corp world. If the drum line is playin' P, what does the horn line have to be playing in order to hear the drum line? Musicians have always had to modify their play style to fit the outdoor, drum corps setting, horns and drums alike.

It can, and has been done. Who's to say it can't be done again? The fact is, the dynamic range has become pretty limited to about mf to FFFF. Nobody ever explores other sides of the spectrum. Isn't the activity kind of about pushing the limits?

From everything I've read from you, it's as if you WANT it to be like it was back in the 80's, when the brass line truly addressed some complex harmonies, and there were no electronics sucking up the bankroll of the corps. Snare drums sounded like snare drums, instead of ceramic tiles, and some of the very great drum lines were playing complex beats.

There are things I loved about the shows from the 80s. There are things I love about current drum corps. The fact is its not the same, and shouldn't be treated as such.

Perhaps I just don't understand and need more splainin' done to me...What to you is stupid flash? I mentioned lots of things that might be, but the only thing you mentioned was "stick tricks". Is a spear to the conductor stupid flash? Mirrors? Doing push-ups? Company fronts? Cross to cross? Crown's laying down leg work? Horse races?

I'll put it to you this way. If you remove it from the show, and the show can't get the point across on its own with just the music and the marching, you should have rewritten the show. That's the difference between Spartacus and Geoffrey.

[skewerz]

I'll put it to you this way. If you remove it from the show, and the show can't get the point across on its own with just the music and the marching, you should have rewritten the show. That's the difference between Spartacus and Geoffrey.

actually, without all the extras, Toy Soldier would be a LOT easier to understand than Spartacus. The color guard and over the top production is what made Spartacus more understandable.

I'm willing to bet lots of money that more people aged 15-25 know what a toy soldier is, compared to Spartacus.

[actucker]

actually, without all the extras, Toy Soldier would be a LOT easier to understand than Spartacus. The color guard and over the top production is what made Spartacus more understandable.

I'm willing to bet lots of money that more people aged 15-25 know what a toy soldier is, compared to Spartacus.

Without little Geoffrey, the Cadets show made no sense musically or visually. Without him, even with the knowledge that more people will know what a toy soldier is, the show wouldn't have been effective. The music wasn't strong enough to stand on its own. "Spartacus" was. Even if you didn't know that the show was about Spartacus, the show made musical sense, and the visual representation without the theatrics fit what was going on musically. Even without the overall concept, the show would be effective. I can't say that for "Toy Soldier". Again, now we're talking about conceptual preferences rather than my dislike for stick tricks, but the same thing holds true. If the solo doesn't make sense without the stick tricks, then you haven't accomplished anything in my opinion.

[tommytimp]

Your insistence that a solo must "make sense" without "stick tricks" is starting to annoy a little. Drumline visuals are put in for a lot of reasons--to impress other lines with creativity, to look good, to play a visual joke on the audience, etc. as well as and et cetera. Can we maybe agree that they guys who put the visuals into the dolo wanted thm there in the first place and considerd them part of the furniture? I don't exactly know from what position of lily-white purity you'd like your drumlines to emanate, but do you obsess about hairstyles in the Swimsuit Edition as well? Backsticking and cross-drumming have been around since time immemorial, so you're kind of shouting at the rain if you think of drumlines without stick visuals. Shall we call you Miss Havisham from now on?

[actucker]

Your insistence that a solo must "make sense" without "stick tricks" is starting to annoy a little. Drumline visuals are put in for a lot of reasons--to impress other lines with creativity, to look good, to play a visual joke on the audience, etc. as well as and et cetera. Can we maybe agree that they guys who put the visuals into the dolo wanted thm there in the first place and considerd them part of the furniture? I don't exactly know from what position of lily-white purity you'd like your drumlines to emanate, but do you obsess about hairstyles in the Swimsuit Edition as well? Backsticking and cross-drumming have been around since time immemorial, so you're kind of shouting at the rain if you think of drumlines without stick visuals. Shall we call you Miss Havisham from now on?

First of all, its not my problem that my opinion annoys you. If you don't like it, don't read my posts. Second of all, I approach the activity as if it were a musical activity, so the music is my priority. If there isn't music happening, I'm not interested. As I have said before, I understand that I am in the minority in that opinion, and I'm fine with that. Trying to belittle me for my having a conversation about my opinion is a pretty childish approach to a conversation. If you're not interested in having a conversation, then don't participate, but I'm not going to sit here and trade insults with you over an opinion that I have every right to.

[charlie1223]

If the solo doesn't make sense without the stick tricks, then you haven't accomplished anything in my opinion.

this doesn't make sense.

What exactly does it take for a drum line to "make sense"? Drumlines should be entertaining, clean, and bad ###. Please clarify.

[actucker]

Drumlines should be entertaining, clean, and bad ###.

I agree, however, fantastic music is entertaining. When its played clean with amazing and uniform expression and technique, it's bad ###. No stick tricks are necessary.

[skewerz]

I agree, however, fantastic music is entertaining. When its played clean with amazing and uniform expression and technique, it's bad ###. No stick tricks are necessary.

marching and color guard aren't needed for fantastic music, either. It sounds like you want the symphony orchestra on the football field.