Homogenizing (in reverse)

[soccerguy315]

Slight adjustment to the original premise: Instead of using the term BOA, as more high school bands began to emulate drum corps' by becoming more highly competitive (locally and nationally), as they began to increase in higher quality, and as they began to charge the very high prices in high school band fees, more and more corps' folded.

And for posters who cannot see that there are way more highly competitive high school bands today with way more high school band contests around the country, and way less drum corps' with way less drum corps' contests, please open your eyes.

yes... I definitely agree with this. Competitive high school bands are definitely replacing the market that "lower level drum corps" used to hold. I did not mean to become so focused on the "BOA" part of your OP, I definitely agree with the overall thoughts.

[Steve Knob]

I think this is more on track than many of the other "reasons" (A&E, singing, "band" instruments, 3 valve bugles, 2 valve bugles, asymmetric drill, mutli-tenors, contras, piston/rotor bugles, not entering from the end line, 1 piston bugles, Elvis, etc...) given for what has happened to drum corps. There is no one cause, and many of the issues talked about on DCP have collectively caused drum corps to change. I also use the word change, and not destruction or demise, because thats what's going on, change, not destruction.

I agree that bands have become "drum corps-ized", not the other way around. Having been involved with both activities since the early 70's, I can see that this is the case.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Steve Knob

[Stu]

I don't know if that's true. how did you measure the "number of bands joining BOA" (what that even entails), but correlation does not mean causation.

Correlation occurs within unlike and unrelated items, like if we noticed that kids who listen to more than 20 hours a week of rock music have lower grades in school math. However, when two extremely similar activities are connected in most major aspects (such as HS Band and DCI both contain music, marching, drill, football field, competition, performance fees, and the list goes on) if one activity increases while the other decreases within those extremely similar activities it can be determined that there is some form of causation. Also, that is why I used the words "partly caused" when referring to the shift.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Stu

[Stu]

I also use the word change, and not destruction or demise, because that's what's going on, change, not destruction.

So, going from over 400 corps that performed at DCI local, regional, national shows in 1972 to just the 46 that performed at shows in 2010 is not destruction or demise but just change? Really?

[cowtown]

Moreover, by studying the history of the entire spectrum of the marching activity, one can see that as more bands joined BOA, or became more competitively active in other local/national competitions, more corps folded. That has to be more than coincidence. Now, open for discussion:

"Correlation does not imply causation"

Thats like rule number one in most science and statics classes and frankly I don't agree with you version

I could made the same observation and reach a different conclusion and simply state, high school marching band does not serve the same purpose as drum corps and if you were around then marching drum corps, you'd know how silly it is to think they do. But mainly because the age range and criterion to march is so restrictive for high school bands. It ignores all the marchers outside of a 4 years spread and schools that have bad or no marching band programs. Where do the kids go to march whose schools dont field a marching band or in my case, where their high school marching band was a complete joke or who are too old …..then I could go on to draw any conclusions I like based upon my observation such as, the top corps of DCI, many of the current g-8 stacked the rules so much in their favor that they drove other corps out and under, mainly in a greedy, placement, power grab. See the Knights of 1983. The g-8 is just the most recent example of this trend which has be ongoing since DCI was formed.

care to tell me why your conclusions is more sound than mine?

Care to back it up with with solid data?

I thought not

cow swins

Edited February 4, 2011 by cowtown

[Armyscout]

This is an important issue that brings true revelance to diminshing amount of drum corps directly. Coming from the BOA system and a HS band that was very active in its circuits for many years, they truly have taken over the notion of the "local" corps because previous to BOA, HS marching band was mostly an exhibitionary matter for game halftime and such. Therefore, these local corps were the only option for a competitive music circuit outside of the football game. BOA changed this regionally and nationalizng the HS marching competition therefore declining the need for seperate corps organization that once filled that roll. This time in age though BOA carries a double edge sword, on one side its taking away the amount of corps there once was due to lack of demand, but on the other side BOA fuels the fire for future recruitment for the remaining modern corps. With the trimming down of active corps in the nation the growing aura of exclusitivity and prestige of the worlds top marching units inspires many BOA marchers to perform at a high level for there age to try get to the level that is now set in many world class corps.

[cowtown]

Correlation occurs within unlike and unrelated items, like if we noticed that kids who listen to more than 20 hours a week of rock music have lower grades in school math. However, when two extremely similar activities are connected in most major aspects (such as HS Band and DCI both contain music, marching, drill, football field, competition, performance fees, and the list goes on) if one activity increases while the other decreases within those extremely similar activities it can be determined that there is some form of causation. Also, that is why I used the words "partly caused" when referring to the shift.

opps, should have read through before I posted

yep, that's still not sound, that’s just your opinion

In my opinion, it sounds like a music major, someone that never took a hard science, lab class

[nemesiscorps]

People who complain about the "marching-band-inzation" of drum corps have it exactly backwards; in reality marching band has been "drum-corps-ized" and have effectively replaced those hundreds of local corps with 1000's of local HS "corps". Instead of denying this reality, drum corps today should focus on how to "fit" DCI corps into this landscape. It's all a matter of perspective. Once you have the courage to think of all those HS programs as local drum corps serving their local communities, the world is suddenly a very different place. The "activity" is flourishing as it never has and is reaching levels of excellence that early corps have never dreamed. Summer drum corps retains it's uniqueness -- HS "corps" in the Fall can never provide the member experience nor can it truly approach that level of excellence. Drum corps continues to provide it's unique approach to the activity. But denying the larger landscape and insisting that drum corps is isolated and separate from the rest of the marching arts experience IMO serves no good purpose.

In order to be attractive to local youth, such corps would need to provide an experience superior to high school programs.

It's certainly not the "build it and they will come" scenario that many here seem to believe.

The bigger challenge is solving the vicious cycle which current DCI Corps face: a model with ever-rising costs and apparently decreasing revenues.

You've made several assertions that I think are good points for discussion, but I'm not convinced. Here's the way I see it:

Marching bands from "back in the day" made conscious decisions to do "corps style" programs, influenced by the drum corps. Those bands fundamentally changed what they were all about, and opted instead to emulate drum & bugle corps in virtually every way that they could, with the exception of changing their instrumentation. With that, there was instant competition created where "similar" marching experiences were available to participants, without having to actually join a drum corps. Plus, rather than having to leave all of your woodwind friends behind in order to march drum corps, the marching band was all-inclusive.

Rather than continuing to do what was already catching the attention of marching bands, the drum corps activity (or more specifically, certain influential people within the activity) determined that the way to future growth, etc. for the corps activity would be to abandon unique aspects of drum corps (primarily instrumentation), and make the corps more like marching bands (again, via instrumentation), and thereby make the corps activity more accessible to mass participation.

In choosing to be more accessible by way of abandoning unique instrumentation, a reality was created where band students and supporters could opt for participating in or supporting organizations similar to corps that did not require meeting the demands of the corps activity. Furthermore, the HS bands were certainly more connected to their general communities than the privately operated drum corps that were also in need of community support. Unanticipated consequences of abandoning unique aspects of the corps activity, in part, created competition for participants (band vs. corps), competition clearly won by HS bands.

Drum corps were always going to be able to devote more time and focus toward the pursuit of performance excellence than the typical HS band, and the uniqueness of the corps activity is what made it appealing to the bands. When the uniqueness of drum corps was slowly abandoned, the decline of active corps and rise of active HS bands with "corps style" shows was imminent.

[Stu]

"Correlation does not imply causation"

That’s like rule number one in most science and statics classes and frankly I don't agree with you version

I could made the same observation and reach a different conclusion and simply state, high school marching band does not serve the same purpose as drum corps and if you were around then marching drum corps, you'd know how silly it is to think they do. But mainly because the age range and criterion to march is so restrictive for high school bands. It ignores all the marchers outside of a 4 years spread and schools that have bad or no marching band programs. Where do the kids go to march whose schools don’t field a marching band or in my case, where their high school marching band was a complete joke or who are too old …..then I could go on to draw any conclusions I like based upon my observation such as, the top corps of DCI, many of the current g-8 stacked the rules so much in their favor that they drove other corps out and under, mainly in a greedy, placement, power grab. See the Knights of 1983. The g-8 is just the most recent example of this trend which has be ongoing since DCI was formed.

care to tell me why your conclusions is more sound than mine?

Care to back it up with with solid data?

I thought not

cow swins

a) Raw data can only be collected using the scientific method; and in this case that is impossible. Also causal conclusions can be assessed when things are "extremely" related and people are connected to both entities. When a parent or a student is asked if they ever will march corps', and their response is, "My director and instructor both marched corps. However, I am already paying $2000 each year to march my high school band, and we perform at Lucas Oil Stadium in front of tens of thousands of people, and the quality of our band is sky high, so there is no real reason to go to a corps to get that experience". What else can be concluded? Something like, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it must be a Cow???"

b) DCI has an age limit just like high school (but the limit is just a little higher).

c) There are less and less HS Bands out there today which, in your words, could consider a joke.

d) Why are you not going after the BOA band directors for charging those outrageous fees to perform with a public school ensemble with the same viciousness as you are showing toward the DCI G8?

Edited February 4, 2011 by Stu

[Rifuarian]

The main force behind the Great Drum Corps Cull was the decline or transformation of all the myriad organizations that once sponsored corps -- veterans groups, churches, youth organizations, etc. There are many smaller causes, but that is by far the largest. Perhaps the rise in the number of competitive marching bands helped speed things along, but it seems pretty dubious. Note that some of the largest concentrations of corps-style bands in the country are in areas, such as the Upper South, where drum corps was never pervasive. At the same time, corps-style bands are relatively uncommon in some areas that once boasted full-fledged local or regional drum corps circuits.

It is an interesting topic though. Corps-style bands do seem to fill in some of the niche left behind by local corps. Local membership, shorter practices, competitions on weekends in state or regional circuits, low dues (those suburban behemoth super-bands that charge high fees and hurl money at big name designers and armies of techs are the exception, not the rule), younger membership than most modern touring corps, etc. There are major differences too, but the similarities are there. But I'm not really convinced that corps-style band and drum corps have ever really been in direct competition with one another.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Rifuarian