Why are they getting docked?

[wackywords]

oh the politics.

[Madbass4]

No need to get defensive. My comment about not being a designer was not meant to insult, only to point out that you're not looking at it from that perspective. But yes, you have missed the point. No, the rest of the design staff is not affecting percussion performance (and nobody here is arguing that they aren't performing well). However, they can in fact affect percussion design, which is the issue. Look at the sheets again, and you'll see that SCV is scoring well in performance (which is how well they are playing what they have). Their issue is in the composition category (in other words, their design). Its not necessarily that the rest of the design staff has an affect on the drum placement, but when you're working together with people you've never worked with before, its going to take time for you to get comfortable and you're likely to write a little conservatively at first.

There are a myriad of other reasons why Rennick might have written more conservatively this year. Maybe they just don't have the hands on the line for him to write more complex stuff. Maybe he just didn't feel like the music called for it. The fact is, however, that their book does not have the same demand as a lot of the other top percussion groups. They are getting plenty of credit for performing it well, but that's not enough to win the Sanford trophy.

I suppose my reply did seem a little defensive. Sorry about that.

So in using the word design, you meant the demand of the percussion arrangement. (I'd hate to say that obviously you've never been a percussionist because I don't know. So instead.....are you a percussionist?) lol, really, I mean no sarcasm there.

In response to the last post - APPARENTLY (and yes, this is keeping in mind the opinions of ALL OF US (the spectators and listeners), THE JUDGES, AAAAAND the actual staff members, writers, and performers of the Santa Clara Vanguard Percussion Section - the 2011 SCV arrangements are not only NOT CONSERVATIVELY WRITTEN, but they are extremely more difficult than the 2010 Phantom Regiment arrangements. The staff members and writers have specifically said that they would never have dreamed of writing with such difficulty when at Phantom Regiment. WRITING CONSERVATIVELY is NOT IN THE EQUATION. Keep in mind - the 2010 Phantom Regiment won the Percussion Caption award, meaning the judges WERE IN THE OPINION they were playing the most demanding book in the cleanest way, more so than their competition. The judges were in agreement of the difficulty, as well as the people who wrote it and taught it. NOW......

We are in 2011, and these same successful staff members (Team Rennick) have written what is in their opinion a MUCH more demanding product, a product able to be showcased by the arrangements and design of the WHOLE SHOW - and their veteran performers agree that it IS much more demanding (JUST GO ASK THEM YOURSELF, IF YOU RUN INTO THEM). Now - I'm not going to weigh their demand in comparison to the demand of their current competition (BECAUSE WE ALL AGREE THAT THEIR CURRENT COMPETITION ARE PLAYING SOME HARD BOOKS TOO). What I AM going to do is weigh their demand against the demand of the 2010 Phantom Regiment Percussion. Apparently people on this thread are saying that maybe THERE ARE REASONS THAT PAUL IS TAKING IT EASY AT VANGUARD (maybe because it's his first year). Considering it is in Paul's, as well as his co-writers opinions, that they have written a much more difficult book this summer, WE MUST RULE THAT ACCUSATION OUT. (I know, I know, I know - I'm sounding like a lawyer in court. Forgive me). There was never any "taking it easy". There was never anything "CONSERVATIVE". Done. Gone.

The FOLLOWING came from people either in or close to certain organizations involved. They will NOT be named:

Judge's critiques - The very first show in Saginaw, TX, a certain judge (we will call him JUDGE X), who arguably has been the judge ranking SCV the lowest throughout not only the first half of the season (WHEN OTHER JUDGES WERE PUTTING THEM in much higher rankings) but continuously throughout the season currently. In Saginaw, when asked why, this JUDGE X told the SCV staff THEY WERE ACTUALLY THE BEST OUT THERE, but they could NOT be ranked first because of the placement of the CORPS AS A WHOLE.

Come mid-Season, JUDGE X was singing a different song at Judge's Critique, telling the SCV Staff that they're VERY DEMANDING book (regardless of being duple-metered, check-patterned, or however the NAYSAYERS are critiquing it), wasn't difficult enough. SCV STAFF MEMBERS tell him it is the hardest thing they've written, and he tells them "I disagree."

The following are shows that only involve the top six-scoring drumlines (arguably), beginning with the first show of the season that was judged by JUDGE X.

SAGINAW, TX - Percussion Judge: JUDGE X (June 18th)

Bluecoats - 15.6

Blue Devils - 15.5

The Cavaliers - 15.4

The Cadets - 15.3

Carolina Crown - 15.1

Santa Clara Vanguard - 14.7

ROUND ROCK, TX - Percussion Judge: Allan Kristensen (June 19th)

Santa Clara Vanguard - 14.7

Blue Devils - 14.4

Carolina Crown - 13.9

The Cavaliers - 13.8

The Cadets - 13.6

Bluecoats - 13.5

MINNEAPOLIS, MN - Percussion Judge: Allan Kristensen (July 16th)

The Cavaliers - 17.2

Blue Devils - 17.1

Santa Clara Vanguard - 16.9

Bluecoats - 16.8

The Cadets - 16.7

Carolina Crown - 16.3

ROCKFORD, IL - Percussion Judge: Mike Davis (July 17th)

The Cavaliers - 17.5

Santa Clara Vanguard - 17.3

Blue Devils - 17.0

The Cadets - 16.8

Bluecoats - 16.7

Carolina Crown - 16.5

HOUSTON, TX - Percussion Judge: JUDGE X (July 22nd)

Blue Devils - 18.3

The Cadets - 18.1

The Cavaliers - 18.0

Carolina Crown - 17.8

Santa Clara Vanguard - 17.3

Bluecoats - 16.9

SAN ANTONIO, TX - Percussion Judge: JUDGE X (July 23rd)

Blue Devils - 19.0

The Cavaliers - 18.9

The Cadets - 18.7

Carolina Crown - 18.5

Santa Clara Vanguard - 18.3

Bluecoats - 18.0

Now, the highest placement that JUDGE X has given SCV's drumline was 2nd place in Denver, CO, but that show DID not have all the top six-scoring drumlines there.

Okay - now we all know it's all about opinion, and DCI Judges are not computers (they're only human, like us - but humans that are qualified to do what they do). We can even keep in mind that there are reasons why groups don't WIN - because they weren't the best. They might even THINK they actually WERE the best - which is probably why they didn't win (and they probably most likely thought the WINNER wasn't very good). But we have to ask ourselves if it's fair for PERFORMERS to be given the short end of the straw simply because their judges (who we put our complete trust in to judge with fairness and impartiality) are not judging consistently with the other judges' opinions. I'm not trying to post this to start a controversial subject about the system of judge-to-staff-to-performer ethics. I'm not posting this because I want to be "THAT GUY" that BozzlyB and many others are sick of hearing. And I certainly did not post this to insult JUDGE X or anyone who happens to think differently of the SCV Percussion Staff's opinions of their own writing (THAT HAS WON THREE TIMES IN THE PAST). I'm posting this because I'm actually now in agreement with WackyWords (who started this thread in the first place) that they are being underscored (NOT DOCKED, thanks to Wes for correcting us, a great guy I marched with back in 2005), and the extraneous factors surrounding this scoring is creating an AURA OF OPINION about the 2011 SCV Drumline that is NOT what the SCV performers and staff members deserve. I posted this because there are people within the organization that KNOW what's going on - and they've been there. They've been in the critiques. They've heard the words of JUDGE X, and now his OTHER fellow judges who appear to be following suit (which they would have to if they need to preserve the integrity of the JUDGE'S system and maintain consistency in scoring without producing any questionable gaps). And yes, these un-named people in the group are flustered about it, they don't think their performers deserve it, and they don't want other performers in other groups (their competition) suffering from the same fate.

I'm also ready to acknowledge that JUDGE X's opinions can be very sound, and that he's NOT letting his personal feelings get in the way of his judgements. It's more than possible - it's likely. He's earned his spot, like every judge has earned their position as a qualified judge. Is it impossible for a human being who's earned his spot as an adjudicator to judge in their own way? But as a spectator, I want the groups I'm watching scored accurately so I can know IN TRUTH which groups are ranked in what order as to the opinions of the most qualified adjudicators in the field.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Madbass4

[Madrid]

If the lack of demand argument were silly, there wouldn't be demand categories on the sheets. If demand weren't important, everyone would come out with a book full of open rolls and check patterns because it would be easy to clean with good sound quality. I'm not throwing stones. I love SCV, and their show, and their percussion book fits well with the horn book, but there are groups out there doing more to earn the Sanford trophy this year.

And the argument that sound quality alone should win them percussion is a little bizarre, as sound quality is kind of amorphous. There are more than a few different ways to hit a drum and get a variety of timbres and articulations. To say that one sound is a better sound than another is kind of silly. Given, there are ways to "overblow" on a drum, but no groups that make it to the top 12 in World Class are going to be having those kinds of issues. One group may go after a different "quality of sound" than another, and some people may like one groups sound better than another. That doesn't make the other group's approach or sound more or less valid. None of that is even to mention how much tuning schemes affect battery sound.

I think you may have interpreted my statement incorrectly. That's okay.

I'm not just talking about sound quality as it relates to tuning/technique/approach, I'm talking about overall Quality of the percussion ensemble. From what I've been hearing, SCV has one of the stronger cohesive packages and clearest dialogues between the 4 battery voices and front ensemble. Other groups that are playing more hybrid/lick oriented books lose a little clarity when it comes to unison ensemble moments where SCV stays clear -- IMO.

[Madbass4]

actucker - maybe we can learn a little more by looking at the sheets. Hope this works. Click the link.

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0U1hq_0Ro0eZGI1NWEzZWYtZWFmYy00YzkyLTgwYWMtYWU3YmYzZDg4NTA1&hl=en_US

[Madbass4]

edited ;)

Edited July 27, 2011 by Madbass4

[Madrid]

edit: Complying to a request to remove link! All is well!

Edited July 27, 2011 by Madrid

[Cache_Money]

No need to get defensive. My comment about not being a designer was not meant to insult, only to point out that you're not looking at it from that perspective. But yes, you have missed the point. No, the rest of the design staff is not affecting percussion performance (and nobody here is arguing that they aren't performing well). However, they can in fact affect percussion design, which is the issue. Look at the sheets again, and you'll see that SCV is scoring well in performance (which is how well they are playing what they have). Their issue is in the composition category (in other words, their design). Its not necessarily that the rest of the design staff has an affect on the drum placement, but when you're working together with people you've never worked with before, its going to take time for you to get comfortable and you're likely to write a little conservatively at first.

There are a myriad of other reasons why Rennick might have written more conservatively this year. Maybe they just don't have the hands on the line for him to write more complex stuff. Maybe he just didn't feel like the music called for it. The fact is, however, that their book does not have the same demand as a lot of the other top percussion groups. They are getting plenty of credit for performing it well, but that's not enough to win the Sanford trophy.

I'm with madbass. You're talking in generalities. Could you put this in terms that us poor non-designers can understand? And maybe provide a specific example (either actual or hypothetical would be fine)?

Not trying to be snarky, I really would like to understand what you're saying.

Thanks.

[drumcorpsfan4567]

No one thinks that Paul might have been playing politics himself when he said that this book was harder than 2010 Phantom? It's always in a caption head's best interest to sway people into believing that a book is hard precisely because demand is a factor on the sheets.

[Madbass4]

No one thinks that Paul might have been playing politics himself when he said that this book was harder than 2010 Phantom? It's always in a caption head's best interest to sway people into believing that a book is hard precisely because demand is a factor on the sheets.

Don't think he ever said anything about 2010 Phantom - but simply that it was the hardest book he's written for a drum corps. I don't have any actual quotes from the man, so it's simply up to you the reader to determine what you think was said. Anyways - it's a caption head's job to ensure the caption does the best and gets the best. Politics is one thing - but why does critique exist in the first place (other than for the judge to explain her or his self)? It's also for communication. But I'm not saying you're wrong. Technically, no one is on this subject.

Anyway - I'm tired. I am now barring myself from posting on this thread. Sorry, WackyWords. ;)

[rkfdPRphan]

...even after reading all this tech stuff and design stuff that is strictly about percussion, I BELIEVE the show design(er) has a HUGE influence on how/what/where the percussion does during a program.

IMO, this could really hurt an otherwise steller percussion section.

How can you do a long section of various snare moves and sounds if it doesn't fit the overall program???

Just wondering.......