Madbass4

I don't want to be the one to say this, but I think people are entitled to answers as to why J.J. CONSISTENTLY judges Paul Rennick INCONSISTENTLY from other judges (or is just too harsh on him in general). These answers will never come out publicly, of course, but I for one certainly hope that SOMEBODY takes him aside and simply asks him what's going through his head every time he judges Paul.

Vanguard over Cadets in 7 of 20 subcaptions (8 of 20 on Thursday), so that is maybe a more plausible move. The outcome there probably has a lot to do with percussion, as the THur/Fri judges saw that matchup very differently. Those who know the story behind "Judge X" would call this the biggest understatement in the history of DCI. lol

Nevermind.... J.J. loves Rennick.

There's no way you're wrong either. ;) Well put.

Well, I'm a former student of Rennick, and I've played in three of his lines. What I learned when at the Univ. of North Texas is that what separated Rennick from the rest of the pack (in other words - made him WIN) was that his writing employed incredible dynamics - and of course Paul made sure his members effectively executed them. Aside from that, his writing tends to be a middle ground between "flashy" and "musical" (usually more on the musical side) in the sense of using classical influences, traditional rudiments, and demand from both a musical and ensemble-difficulty standpoint to get his point across. Keeping this in mind, the cherry on top that solidifies Paul's product is his complete and sacrosanct marriage to clean drumming, to the point where the beginning of the summer is no excuse for dirt. There was a kid on youtube who posted something from Scott Johnson (from a Blue Devil clinic) about how he said that if your drumline is playing clean early in the season, then your book is too easy (incidentally, the Blue Devils this summer are playing a very ambitious book, which was not very clean early in the summer). Anyone from North Texas or Rennick's lines will tell you that this philosophy is simply not acceptable. Usually all of Rennick's lines have started out drumming cleaner than the majority of others every June (even the ones who have not won, meaning all but three). It's just a standard that not all drumlines value. Some value difficulty in the sense of extremely visible showmanship (in other words predominantly "flashy") with dirt allowed because it's June - to the point where they wait for it to get cleaner as they get more comfortable with it to the point of finally having a product worthy of "Finals" (while ignoring the rest of us who can't attend it). Others just keep their standards, respectively. Bottom line is that Paul is what you call a "director" in the very best sense of the word - he knows what he wants, and he elicits that response better than many others... and that is to play clean and play musically. When a lot of us veterans watched the 2011 Phantom Regiment Drumline in the lot, one of the most distracting things we heard (other than early summer dirt, which we weren't used to hearing so exposed), was a rock backbeat in the pit during a ballad. Knowing full well what the corps' repertoire was, we were just shaking our heads (granted, they scrapped that backbeat, after a heated debate I'm sure). STYLE issues are also something that you won't really find issue with in Paul's writing. Politically, you can also bet that Paul's status and reputation is not something to be toyed with (as compared to other caption heads who are doing their jobs for the first time), but that's not something I'll really go into. ;)

As a drummer, me and a lot of former drum corps drummer veterans like to argue that one of the reasons Phantom was able to surpass the very clean Blue Devils and fan favorite Cavaliers show in 2008 was because of the Regiment Drumline. We always like to cite 2008 as a year where a drumline was the "deciding factor" in who was to win that year in 2008. Whether you truly believe that or not (you'd have to calculate all the points yourself in doing the math), Regiment did have the powerhouse drumline that summer, while Blue Devils finished in 5th. This year, although Regiment has quite the show, the drumline is consistently finishing in 7th or lower. Now, it's not that they're drumming terribly (I think they're doing a fine job personally), but the judges simply believe that six other drumlines are more impressive on the competitive scale (with Phantom's former percussion caption head, as well as former members, leading the pack at the Santa Clara Vanguard). Bottom line, it's going to be tough for Phantom to do what they did in 2008 considering they don't have the Rennick percussion package that the judges and percussion fans love so much. They MIGHT not be able to repeat 2008, but they still have nothing to be ashamed of. Their show of "Turandot" will still be remembered as a great show!

LMAO!

Bit of a Strawman comparison, don't you think?

When I marched 2002 Madison Scouts, we had some of the most talented veteran members, most of whom started marching in the 20th century ('97-'99, lol)! In 2003, we hired a new visual and design team, as well as management and colorguard staff. Another change this year, the musical talent dropped definitely, with the loss of an incredible group of ageouts the year before, and the incoming group of kids weren't exactly as talented as the average talent pool that came to Madison. The average member age in '03 was 17 1/2. 2002 - Semifinals placement of 14th. Did not make Finals. 2003 - 8th place Finals. Something to think about when it comes to the power behind the design of a show.

edited

This thread is difficult for me - a Madison Scouts AND Phantom Regiment alum.

"The drumline of SCV gets used to Paul Rennick and takes top percussion next year" ????? I didn't know they weren't used to him already, considering the majority of the line were from Phantom (or the minority of the line were SCV vets from 2010 and before).

My point exactly (the point that was attacked by SCV_Chuck). Philharmonic orchestras, or any musical group that performs on the stage - it's an activity where competition (that is...COMPETITION BETWEEN MUSICAL GROUPS THAT ARE JUDGED ON A POINT SYSTEM THAT LEADS TO AN ULTIMATE WINNER) does not exist. The performers participate because they love music and love to perform, they get paid to do it, people pay to watch them perform, and they even travel the world performing (exhibitions, if you will). So here's the question - - IS THE DRUM CORPS ACTIVITY RELIANT ON THE COMPETITION ASPECT TO REMAIN ALIVE? And the question for you the reader - - IF IT WERE AN ACTIVITY LIKE OTHER "EXHIBITION GROUPS", WOULD YOU ENJOY IT AS MUCH? Would one sit at the most amazingly performed drum corps show going "This is boring...there's no one here to compete against them!"? Maybe a more interesting question would be that if Drum Corps were to become so popular with the world that it became an activity that made profit, and performers were paid like professional musicians in the working world - would COMPETITION STILL BE NECESSARY? I apologize if I'm getting off topic on the subject of this thread - but it's obviously evolved into other issues. And again - - DISCLAIMER: I'm not taking sides. I think the educational aspect and competitive aspect of the activity are both important. And...um...VANGUARD! (to keep with the thread)

Well I didn't say the competitive aspect of the activity is NOT the reason to march, Mr. Defensive! GOSH! lol I suppose in a heated thread such as this one, I should have included a disclaimer about what I felt on every aspect of the drum corps activity, including life itself, why God invented drum corps, and why Santa Clara Vanguard rocks the hizzouse! But since you're bringing up adding competition to all aspects of life, I'll retort. I AGREE with you on that. But what do you say to the person that argues, "That competitive aspect is PART OF THE EDUCATIONAL aspect of the activity." Do you say, "No, the debate is over whether which part is more important!", or "Okay, the educational aspect is a bigger picture of the competitive part." Or do you say, "You don't know what you're talking about." ? With the attitude I'm sensing from a lot of defensive people on this thread, I just want to express that I'm not taking any sides on this matter - and that maybe we all should just embrace the fact that experience is experience, and that the competition in DCI is what fuels performers to strive for excellence, and that the education you get from it is also extremely valuable to life itself. I for one switched drum corps for that very reason (competition) - because I wanted to be in the most talented drumline at the time. And I loved my first drum corps for the experience it gave me, but I wanted to be a "player" in the activity. Phew! Wow.

There seems to be a lot of hate on this thread, and an issue now about what's more important - the competitive aspect or the educational aspect. Well, I would definitely choose the educational aspect (when Joe Blow Snuffy was lucky enough to make the Imaginary Brassmen from Podunk, AnyState, he left that Summer and returned home as the smartest guy his town had ever seen!!!) In talks with my fiancee over DCI, we mentioned the scenario of the competitive aspect of the activity being completely done away with. The world of symphonies would have their New York and Chicago Phil's, and the world of marching arts would have their Cavaliers and Spirits of Atlanta, etc. There would be no competition, but there would be high-class organizations of music and field pageantry. A good question is - will any of us in the world who think it's not about "winning" be comfortable with a world of drum & bugle corps with no Drum Corps International League or competition to add to the activity? DISCLAIMER: In my four years marching, I'd never won a DCI championship. So no, I don't know how it feels. Oh well... And to those who just CAN'T STAND people who are only about winning, here's a little joke (an old one) that might lighten your mood. This joke is based on a true story: There once was a young man who wanted a DCI Championship more than anything. It was the year 1992, and the Cavaliers were the DCI World Champions! The young man decided to go there and get his ring. Unfortunately for him, The Cadets of Bergen County ended up beating them to the top. So....he went to the Cadets in 1994. Unfortunately for him....again....the Cadets did not win, as the Blue Devils beat them for the win. So - it's his ageout. He's gotta make it count! He goes to Concord and marches for the Blue Devils. And yes...unfortunately for him...they did not win. They were beat by the young man's very first corps he marched for...ye olde Cavaliers. If he only stuck it out...but hopefully his educational experience overpowered his competitive thirst. And the moral of the story? Well...that's up to you." ;)

Congratulations SCV, highest score not only in DCI history, but in ANYTHING history! Who would have thought...

1) Carolina Crown 2) Madison Scouts 3) The Cavaliers 4) Blue Devils 5) Phantom Regiment 6) The Cadets 7) Santa Clara Vanguard 8) Bluecoats 9) Spirit of Atlanta 10) Boston Crusaders 11) Blue Stars 12) Crossmen DISCLAIMER: I was not able to see Blue Knights, Glassmen, The Academy, Jersey Surf, Pacific Crest, Teal Sound, Mandarins, or The Cascades. By the way, does anyone know if Magic of Orlando was there? That last part was a joke. Haha...not very funny, I know.

I'm hoping this will be my final post on this thread, 'cause I'm sure I've exhausted my words on the subject. I don't want to come off as attacking other groups playing out there that are scoring higher than SCV right now - but after watching numerous videos on the Site That Shall Not Be Named, it's no wonder there are angry people from Santa Clara right now, especially after the latest percussion victory in Arkansas tonight (by the way, congratulations Cadets!). But although I extend a congratulations to them - my harsh and simple criticism is this. In comparison to the two drumlines they just beat (The Cavaliers and Santa Clara Vanguard) - I find their arrangement much more simple and less demanding, and their performance not exceptionally clean. Now of course, I wasn't in Arkansas, so I can't say that my criticism is of their most recent performance tonight. What I can say (and I hope I'm not the only one in thinking this) is that the drumline I want to see win the trophy is NOT the drumline who all of a sudden drums the best show of the DCI league during all 3 Prelims nights. I want it to be the drumline who plays the best consistently from NIGHT TO NIGHT, SHOW TO SHOW. We don't need scores and opinions from people in green polo shirts to know ourselves who the best is. The people who knew better knew in 2006 that Phantom Regiment was untouchable. They knew better in 2010 as well. They knew in 2003 that The Cadets were untouchable (during a summer of some GREAT drumlines). With the previous argument that SCV hasn't gotten any worse, AND that demand of the book has no part in the judgment of the percussion caption (but apparently it does behind closed doors) - I'm just gonna go ahead and complete my criticism and opinion that I think the 2011 Cadets are not better than the 2011 Santa Clara Vanguard or Cavaliers, end of story. I've seen the videos, I've seen them live in Minneapolis, and if they execute their performance during prelims better than every drumline in the league, then they've earned their Sanford trophy. But the people who know better know who's the best. I'm not attacking Blue Devils either - but I would hate to see this season as another repeat of 2007. I like my DCI seasons to center more around honesty in the percussion category. Am I alone on this? If you wanna reply to me, I suggest sending me a private message. I don't really care for crowding this thread with my super long posts. I like to write, but I'm still considerate.

Don't think he ever said anything about 2010 Phantom - but simply that it was the hardest book he's written for a drum corps. I don't have any actual quotes from the man, so it's simply up to you the reader to determine what you think was said. Anyways - it's a caption head's job to ensure the caption does the best and gets the best. Politics is one thing - but why does critique exist in the first place (other than for the judge to explain her or his self)? It's also for communication. But I'm not saying you're wrong. Technically, no one is on this subject. Anyway - I'm tired. I am now barring myself from posting on this thread. Sorry, WackyWords. ;)

edited ;)

actucker - maybe we can learn a little more by looking at the sheets. Hope this works. Click the link. https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0U1hq_0Ro0eZGI1NWEzZWYtZWFmYy00YzkyLTgwYWMtYWU3YmYzZDg4NTA1&hl=en_US

I suppose my reply did seem a little defensive. Sorry about that. So in using the word design, you meant the demand of the percussion arrangement. (I'd hate to say that obviously you've never been a percussionist because I don't know. So instead.....are you a percussionist?) lol, really, I mean no sarcasm there. In response to the last post - APPARENTLY (and yes, this is keeping in mind the opinions of ALL OF US (the spectators and listeners), THE JUDGES, AAAAAND the actual staff members, writers, and performers of the Santa Clara Vanguard Percussion Section - the 2011 SCV arrangements are not only NOT CONSERVATIVELY WRITTEN, but they are extremely more difficult than the 2010 Phantom Regiment arrangements. The staff members and writers have specifically said that they would never have dreamed of writing with such difficulty when at Phantom Regiment. WRITING CONSERVATIVELY is NOT IN THE EQUATION. Keep in mind - the 2010 Phantom Regiment won the Percussion Caption award, meaning the judges WERE IN THE OPINION they were playing the most demanding book in the cleanest way, more so than their competition. The judges were in agreement of the difficulty, as well as the people who wrote it and taught it. NOW...... We are in 2011, and these same successful staff members (Team Rennick) have written what is in their opinion a MUCH more demanding product, a product able to be showcased by the arrangements and design of the WHOLE SHOW - and their veteran performers agree that it IS much more demanding (JUST GO ASK THEM YOURSELF, IF YOU RUN INTO THEM). Now - I'm not going to weigh their demand in comparison to the demand of their current competition (BECAUSE WE ALL AGREE THAT THEIR CURRENT COMPETITION ARE PLAYING SOME HARD BOOKS TOO). What I AM going to do is weigh their demand against the demand of the 2010 Phantom Regiment Percussion. Apparently people on this thread are saying that maybe THERE ARE REASONS THAT PAUL IS TAKING IT EASY AT VANGUARD (maybe because it's his first year). Considering it is in Paul's, as well as his co-writers opinions, that they have written a much more difficult book this summer, WE MUST RULE THAT ACCUSATION OUT. (I know, I know, I know - I'm sounding like a lawyer in court. Forgive me). There was never any "taking it easy". There was never anything "CONSERVATIVE". Done. Gone. The FOLLOWING came from people either in or close to certain organizations involved. They will NOT be named: Judge's critiques - The very first show in Saginaw, TX, a certain judge (we will call him JUDGE X), who arguably has been the judge ranking SCV the lowest throughout not only the first half of the season (WHEN OTHER JUDGES WERE PUTTING THEM in much higher rankings) but continuously throughout the season currently. In Saginaw, when asked why, this JUDGE X told the SCV staff THEY WERE ACTUALLY THE BEST OUT THERE, but they could NOT be ranked first because of the placement of the CORPS AS A WHOLE. Come mid-Season, JUDGE X was singing a different song at Judge's Critique, telling the SCV Staff that they're VERY DEMANDING book (regardless of being duple-metered, check-patterned, or however the NAYSAYERS are critiquing it), wasn't difficult enough. SCV STAFF MEMBERS tell him it is the hardest thing they've written, and he tells them "I disagree." The following are shows that only involve the top six-scoring drumlines (arguably), beginning with the first show of the season that was judged by JUDGE X. SAGINAW, TX - Percussion Judge: JUDGE X (June 18th) Bluecoats - 15.6 Blue Devils - 15.5 The Cavaliers - 15.4 The Cadets - 15.3 Carolina Crown - 15.1 Santa Clara Vanguard - 14.7 ROUND ROCK, TX - Percussion Judge: Allan Kristensen (June 19th) Santa Clara Vanguard - 14.7 Blue Devils - 14.4 Carolina Crown - 13.9 The Cavaliers - 13.8 The Cadets - 13.6 Bluecoats - 13.5 MINNEAPOLIS, MN - Percussion Judge: Allan Kristensen (July 16th) The Cavaliers - 17.2 Blue Devils - 17.1 Santa Clara Vanguard - 16.9 Bluecoats - 16.8 The Cadets - 16.7 Carolina Crown - 16.3 ROCKFORD, IL - Percussion Judge: Mike Davis (July 17th) The Cavaliers - 17.5 Santa Clara Vanguard - 17.3 Blue Devils - 17.0 The Cadets - 16.8 Bluecoats - 16.7 Carolina Crown - 16.5 HOUSTON, TX - Percussion Judge: JUDGE X (July 22nd) Blue Devils - 18.3 The Cadets - 18.1 The Cavaliers - 18.0 Carolina Crown - 17.8 Santa Clara Vanguard - 17.3 Bluecoats - 16.9 SAN ANTONIO, TX - Percussion Judge: JUDGE X (July 23rd) Blue Devils - 19.0 The Cavaliers - 18.9 The Cadets - 18.7 Carolina Crown - 18.5 Santa Clara Vanguard - 18.3 Bluecoats - 18.0 Now, the highest placement that JUDGE X has given SCV's drumline was 2nd place in Denver, CO, but that show DID not have all the top six-scoring drumlines there. Okay - now we all know it's all about opinion, and DCI Judges are not computers (they're only human, like us - but humans that are qualified to do what they do). We can even keep in mind that there are reasons why groups don't WIN - because they weren't the best. They might even THINK they actually WERE the best - which is probably why they didn't win (and they probably most likely thought the WINNER wasn't very good). But we have to ask ourselves if it's fair for PERFORMERS to be given the short end of the straw simply because their judges (who we put our complete trust in to judge with fairness and impartiality) are not judging consistently with the other judges' opinions. I'm not trying to post this to start a controversial subject about the system of judge-to-staff-to-performer ethics. I'm not posting this because I want to be "THAT GUY" that BozzlyB and many others are sick of hearing. And I certainly did not post this to insult JUDGE X or anyone who happens to think differently of the SCV Percussion Staff's opinions of their own writing (THAT HAS WON THREE TIMES IN THE PAST). I'm posting this because I'm actually now in agreement with WackyWords (who started this thread in the first place) that they are being underscored (NOT DOCKED, thanks to Wes for correcting us, a great guy I marched with back in 2005), and the extraneous factors surrounding this scoring is creating an AURA OF OPINION about the 2011 SCV Drumline that is NOT what the SCV performers and staff members deserve. I posted this because there are people within the organization that KNOW what's going on - and they've been there. They've been in the critiques. They've heard the words of JUDGE X, and now his OTHER fellow judges who appear to be following suit (which they would have to if they need to preserve the integrity of the JUDGE'S system and maintain consistency in scoring without producing any questionable gaps). And yes, these un-named people in the group are flustered about it, they don't think their performers deserve it, and they don't want other performers in other groups (their competition) suffering from the same fate. I'm also ready to acknowledge that JUDGE X's opinions can be very sound, and that he's NOT letting his personal feelings get in the way of his judgements. It's more than possible - it's likely. He's earned his spot, like every judge has earned their position as a qualified judge. Is it impossible for a human being who's earned his spot as an adjudicator to judge in their own way? But as a spectator, I want the groups I'm watching scored accurately so I can know IN TRUTH which groups are ranked in what order as to the opinions of the most qualified adjudicators in the field.

I think you mistook the word "all" as all the Phantom staff went to SCV. No they didn't. Yes, Ellis is at Boston now.

Well, then I apologize for making you and the many people who read my post think that I thought Paul Rennick was the only one who draws talented performers. I am now aware that he is not the only one. Okay, aside from my sarcasm (it was there), YES, I know he's not the only one.

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