Why are they getting docked?

[actucker]

Hey MadBass4 - I'm loving your posts, man. Thanks for the articulation and thoughtful presentation of your views. Cheers!

p.s. I'm with you on the whole SCV thing. The whole lack of demand argument is a bit silly. However, I can see why it exists and how people would throw that stone at SCV this season. I counter that stance with this: Lets not forget that Quality creates Demand. Last I heard, SCV is throwin' down some serious Quality.

If the lack of demand argument were silly, there wouldn't be demand categories on the sheets. If demand weren't important, everyone would come out with a book full of open rolls and check patterns because it would be easy to clean with good sound quality. I'm not throwing stones. I love SCV, and their show, and their percussion book fits well with the horn book, but there are groups out there doing more to earn the Sanford trophy this year.

And the argument that sound quality alone should win them percussion is a little bizarre, as sound quality is kind of amorphous. There are more than a few different ways to hit a drum and get a variety of timbres and articulations. To say that one sound is a better sound than another is kind of silly. Given, there are ways to "overblow" on a drum, but no groups that make it to the top 12 in World Class are going to be having those kinds of issues. One group may go after a different "quality of sound" than another, and some people may like one groups sound better than another. That doesn't make the other group's approach or sound more or less valid. None of that is even to mention how much tuning schemes affect battery sound.

[actucker]

One thing I appreciated when I transferred to Rennick's line (bassline) was that we never repeated the same phrase over again. It's not that there's a lack of anything like an Ostinato or anything like that, it's just that his writing is always unique, always exploratory (and I'd call it more classical than contemporary music), and never repetitive. Other lines can play different styles (pop, rock, etc.) where it's required to play the same phrase for the length of twelve bars - but you never have that with Rennick's writing. The Cavaliers (a great drumline this summer, by the way - a credit to their race, lol) have a lot of good things in their book, but if they're playing a lot of the same thing over and over again (NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT) - - I am inclined to enjoy SCV's book more (which is apparently the easiest book in DCI to some naysayers, lol). Maybe it's something that needs to be studied, I don't know. What do the majority of classically trained musicians think about Rennick's book, compared to the drummers that are from a pop music background? Do they like Rennick's writing over the Devs, or the Cavies, or Crown? Do they not?

Whatever it is, Paul enjoys writing what he wants, and he knows how to make a musician better, which is why so many "follow" him. (The people that followed him to SCV from top-6 drum corps other than PR should account for that, as well as over the years, i.e. drummers from Cavaliers and Bluecoats transferring to PR, etc. etc. etc.). No matter how "easy" the beats will be, the performers will enjoy the experience because they chose to come to get better (especially if they're music majors in college), they trust Paul to do it, and they play cleaner than a lot of their competition in the activity, regardless of scores (which is sad, but that's the reason this thread was created, I suppose).

I'm a classically trained musician, and while I love SCV's book this year, I also recognize that there are other groups out there this year that are doing more demanding things at a very high level. I'm also not insinuating that SCV's book is exceptionally easy either. They wouldn't be scoring near the top 4 in percussion if it were. However, the demand level doesn't approach that of the Blue Devils, the Cadets, or the Cavaliers this year, and they aren't playing their book at a high enough level to make up for that lack of demand.

As for your argument that people flock to Rennick because he will make them better, that is probably true, however you say it as if he were the only one. Tons of people went to Vanguard when Murray was there because of the things people were learning from him. They were taking risks and exploring new techniques, and while they knew they might not win drums every year, they wanted to be a part of that. People have followed Macintosh from Cavaliers to Bluecoats, and back because they loved his writing and teaching style. People have marched in MCM's and Cavaliers' front ensemble because they like Erik Johnson and the way he writes and teaches? Rennick is hardly the only one who draws people to him with his style, and he's definitely not the only one who draws music majors.

[wackywords]

and it happened again tonight.

[Madbass4]

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Edited July 29, 2011 by Madbass4

[WPendergrass]

Just as a point of order:

No one is "getting docked" unless they have received a penalty. The entire judging system at the moment is predicated on rewarding excellence, not downgrading fault. There is a big difference. There is also verbage that defines excellence on the sheet, which is then interpreted by someone very competent (or at least more competent than 99% of us) into a score.

[Liahona]

- and those designers are the SCV Percussion Staff (all of whom came from Phantom Regiment except for the Cymbal technicians)

and just a side note to your discussion...Ellis Hampton who was part of the percussion staff with PR 2009 is with Boston this year...

[Madbass4]

As for your argument that people flock to Rennick because he will make them better, that is probably true, however you say it as if he were the only one.

Well, then I apologize for making you and the many people who read my post think that I thought Paul Rennick was the only one who draws talented performers. I am now aware that he is not the only one.

Okay, aside from my sarcasm (it was there), YES, I know he's not the only one.

[Madbass4]

and just a side note to your discussion...Ellis Hampton who was part of the percussion staff with PR 2009 is with Boston this year...

I think you mistook the word "all" as all the Phantom staff went to SCV. No they didn't. Yes, Ellis is at Boston now.

[actucker]

I've obviously never been a designer? Sheesh, I guess I feel bad that it's obvious, lol.

Even still, I still fail to see how working with a new design team affects your percussion performance, and I'd hate to call you out for not illustrating that further (or perhaps I just couldn't comprehend it, and my apologies if so). Are you saying that the design team (of who were not a part of the Percussion Staff) at Phantom Regiment had a significant contribution to the three Fred Sanford trophies, as well as their successful products, and that the current team (non-Percussion) at SCV getting used to the new Percussion program is affecting their current drum standings? I'd hate to be the one to ask this (and maybe because I'm not a designer), but how do these designers affect the drum performance exactly? Are you implying that the SCV drummers aren't performing as well as they were when they were at PR because they're not as comfortable with the SCV designers - or that the SCV Drum Staff can't teach up to the same standard that they used to because they're not as comfortable with the SCV designers?

I'm sorry, but the only design perspective you mention of that I can possibly think has anything to do with the category of Percussion Performance is the design of the actual Percussion Performance - and those designers are the SCV Percussion Staff (all of whom came from Phantom Regiment except for the Cymbal technicians) - meaning they know how to win because they've done it three times, regardless of what show designers had them doing (i.e. visual positioning, marching style, etc. etc.). And knowing Mr. Rennick (from my own experience), I'm pretty sure he's the only "designer" of this respective caption. This caption IS what we're talking about, RIGHT? We're not talking about the corps as a whole, we're talking about the percussion section (??????)

If I've completely missed the point, please inform me as to why. I really mean no disrespect.

No need to get defensive. My comment about not being a designer was not meant to insult, only to point out that you're not looking at it from that perspective. But yes, you have missed the point. No, the rest of the design staff is not affecting percussion performance (and nobody here is arguing that they aren't performing well). However, they can in fact affect percussion design, which is the issue. Look at the sheets again, and you'll see that SCV is scoring well in performance (which is how well they are playing what they have). Their issue is in the composition category (in other words, their design). Its not necessarily that the rest of the design staff has an affect on the drum placement, but when you're working together with people you've never worked with before, its going to take time for you to get comfortable and you're likely to write a little conservatively at first.

There are a myriad of other reasons why Rennick might have written more conservatively this year. Maybe they just don't have the hands on the line for him to write more complex stuff. Maybe he just didn't feel like the music called for it. The fact is, however, that their book does not have the same demand as a lot of the other top percussion groups. They are getting plenty of credit for performing it well, but that's not enough to win the Sanford trophy.

[steeldrum]

A couple of points I'll make on this topic. I've spoken with SCV drumline members from the tenor line, snare line and front ensemble who were members of PR last year. All stated (back in spring training) that the book this year is much harder than last year at PR. I talked to them again at the Dallas show and they are baffled about this talk of their book being easy. To me the only section of the show that is weak in difficulty perhaps is the ballad, where the battery really never contributes anything except for crush roles. But I would hate for them to ruin that beautiful ballad by cramming a bunch of notes on top.

I don't buy the argument about Rennick is getting comfortable with SCV. He has half the old PR line, most of the old PR staff, and from most people's perspectie had them performing at a very high level out of the gate. The "issue" is that there are several VERY GOOD lines this year playing some hellacious books. Its just a great year for drums in DCI. I expect there to be a lot of movement amongst the top 5 lines through the end of the season as they tweak changes.

Actually, as I think about it more, SCV is perhaps playing the most "hellacious" book.......