Drum Corps Nation Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 First, let me say, this is NOT a conspiracy theory or "this judge doesn't like this corps" thread. This is a completely honest question. My question is this: Mystery Corps consistently beats higher placed corps in a certain performance caption during the week. Let's say it's visual performance. They are scoring a full point and a half above their other captions every night. Then, Regional time rolls around, and all of a sudden that corps is placing and scoring lower in that caption than corps that are beating them, and the spread between that caption and the corps' other caption scores becomes much more similar. Why does this happen? Be aware, I'm not asking IF it happens, because I've looked at the recaps and it DOES happen. My question is why do YOU think this happens? Is it inconsistency with the corps performance? Nerves? Or is it the S word? (Slotting) Or something else altogether? Is it the sheer number of corps at a regional that makes it more difficult for a corps to get a fair shake? Is it judges afraid to pull the trigger and call it as they really see it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexL Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 It definitely happens. Caption scores tend to converge towards a corps' overall placement. A corps with an outlying negative score benefits from it (that negative dimiishes) and a corps with a outlying positive loses from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 it happens and I think it is obvious... this year has been somewhat better. There is nothing worse than looking at a recap and seeing corps #5 have 5s in every subcaption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Is it inconsistency with the corps performance? Nerves? Or is it the S word? (Slotting) Or something else altogether? Is it the sheer number of corps at a regional that makes it more difficult for a corps to get a fair shake? Is it judges afraid to pull the trigger and call it as they really see it? I don't know that I'd call it slotting, but I do think that a judge's job is really difficult when there are 20+ corps in the mix. In Atlanta there were 23 WC corps. The average distance between 23rd place and 1st place in any given subcaption was 2.6. Given that scores have to be in increments of 0.1, then that makes it impossible for a judge to give every corps the fairest possible score, because they have to decide on Pioneer's score right after seeing Pioneer, and on Cascades' score right after seeing Cascades. They can't go back and adjust. So they can't make too big of leaps from corps to corps, or they'll run out of room at the top. And they can't make too small of leaps or they might not be able to fit a later corps that does more poorly into the appropriate place in the field. For example, I think the percussion judge got himself into a little bit of trouble, scoring SCV half a point higher than Boston in the percussion music category, up to 9.3. Maybe SCV was half a point better or maybe the judge thought he would need four slots between Boston and SCV. But then the judge apparently decided that of the remaining six corps, there were five better percussion sections, and had to run that subcaption up to 9.8 to fit them all in. A 9.8 does seem too high with two weeks left in the season. But what if Phantom had also been better? Unless he resorted to ties, the judge would have had to put BD at 9.9! Combine that with the fact that 23 corps is just a lot to take in, and I'm not surprised that "slotting" sometimes takes over when it's just too close to call. Edited August 2, 2011 by skywhopper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drum Corps Nation Posted August 2, 2011 Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 I don't know that I'd call it slotting, but I do think that a judge's job is really difficult when there are 20+ corps in the mix. In Atlanta there were 23 WC corps. The average distance between 23rd place and 1st place in any given subcaption was 2.6. Given that scores have to be in increments of 0.1, then that makes it impossible for a judge to give every corps the fairest possible score, because they have to decide on Pioneer's score right after seeing Pioneer, and on Cascades' score right after seeing Cascades. They can't go back and adjust. So they can't make too big of leaps from corps to corps, or they'll run out of room at the top. And they can't make too small of leaps or they might not be able to fit a later corps that does more poorly into the appropriate place in the field. For example, I think the percussion judge got himself into a little bit of trouble, scoring SCV half a point higher than Boston in the percussion music category, up to 9.3. Maybe SCV was half a point better or maybe the judge thought he would need four slots between Boston and SCV. But then the judge apparently decided that of the remaining six corps, there were five better percussion sections, and had to run that subcaption up to 9.8 to fit them all in. A 9.8 does seem too high with two weeks left in the season. But what if Phantom had also been better? Unless he resorted to ties, the judge would have had to put BD at 9.9! Combine that with the fact that 23 corps is just a lot to take in, and I'm not surprised that "slotting" sometimes takes over when it's just too close to call. Why can't there be ties? Are judges being pressured to not score ties? Or do they just not want to because they're afraid of looking indecisive? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdkappasig Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I don't know that I'd call it slotting, but I do think that a judge's job is really difficult when there are 20+ corps in the mix. In Atlanta there were 23 WC corps. The average distance between 23rd place and 1st place in any given subcaption was 2.6. Given that scores have to be in increments of 0.1, then that makes it impossible for a judge to give every corps the fairest possible score, because they have to decide on Pioneer's score right after seeing Pioneer, and on Cascades' score right after seeing Cascades. They can't go back and adjust. So they can't make too big of leaps from corps to corps, or they'll run out of room at the top. And they can't make too small of leaps or they might not be able to fit a later corps that does more poorly into the appropriate place in the field. For example, I think the percussion judge got himself into a little bit of trouble, scoring SCV half a point higher than Boston in the percussion music category, up to 9.3. Maybe SCV was half a point better or maybe the judge thought he would need four slots between Boston and SCV. But then the judge apparently decided that of the remaining six corps, there were five better percussion sections, and had to run that subcaption up to 9.8 to fit them all in. A 9.8 does seem too high with two weeks left in the season. But what if Phantom had also been better? Unless he resorted to ties, the judge would have had to put BD at 9.9! Combine that with the fact that 23 corps is just a lot to take in, and I'm not surprised that "slotting" sometimes takes over when it's just too close to call. precisely, which is why the overall score from show to show really doesn't matter. It's the spread that matters. BD wasn't at a 94.8 relative to some all knowing 100 point scale, they were 94.8 relative to the fact that the judging panel felt like they were 0.7 above the cadets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexL Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Why can't there be ties? Are judges being pressured to not score ties? Or do they just not want to because they're afraid of looking indecisive? Well its been mentioned here before that judges are told to rank and rate... personally, given we've got multiple judges which should decrease ties in the overall picture, i say just rate. If two corps are equal in a subcaption, rank them equal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotorCityMusician Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Take a look at glassmens recaps of regionals and then individual shows head to head. The percussion (that got a 17.3 last night beating BK and madison) is never near these groups at a regional. In the hint for the final spot they beat the others in percussion at those shows but always behind at the regional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) Why can't there be ties? Are judges being pressured to not score ties? Or do they just not want to because they're afraid of looking indecisive? Ties are allowed and there are some ties. I have no idea what's going through their minds or what they are encouraged to do, but if it were me, I would probably prefer to actually rank the corps unless I felt there was really no difference in achievement, which is probably relatively rare. Edited August 3, 2011 by skywhopper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drum Corps Nation Posted August 3, 2011 Author Share Posted August 3, 2011 Well its been mentioned here before that judges are told to rank and rate... personally, given we've got multiple judges which should decrease ties in the overall picture, i say just rate. If two corps are equal in a subcaption, rank them equal. This is interesting that you should say this. I've seen the sheets, talked to the judges in critique, this is not the way they justify their numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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