KeithHall Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 LOL Just wondering Stu...what corps were you associated with. I am only asking because I don't know. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you personally interviewed every marcher and staffer from the '75 Muchachos, '76 Crossmen, '77 Bridgemen and '84 Eclipses, and confirmed that they knowingly and unanimously colluded to break the DCI age rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancerLegend Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Just think of how easy it was to lie about your age BITD. Example - I could go north/south/west to march after I aged out - by using my younger brother's birth certificate. I could show up - audition - and probbly make a corps. They would call me by my brother's name etc. All we used were paper birth certificates and many licenses didn't have photos on them. No one would know until we met up with my former corps - they would certainly know me and would most likely rat on me. The tough part for me about Bayonne in 1977, was that their cousins up the street in Hawthorne got bagged in 1975. How stupid was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallyoldfrt Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 All of this stuff mentioned in the thread is largely based on hearsay, grapevine rumor, drum corps legend, etc. Rules are almost as old as drum corps itself, which goes back decades before anyone dreamed of DCI, ( for you newbies). The American Legion, and the VFW issued Rule Books which were regularly updated and amended. Rules for age limits were always in place, and the individual corps management were always responsible for seeing that they were adhered to. The penalty for violations was clearly stipulated. DQs for age, or other membership violations, unfortunately happened with distressing regularity. Many more corps got away with flouting them than the ones who got caught. DCI, in their almost religious zeal to eradicate the activity's association with the veterans organizations, spent a lot of time getting rid of "restrictions" that were hampering creativity, and a lot of other "stuff" that was quite rightly seen as military "chicken $hi+". Today DCI has very few rules. Even the age requirement has been somewhat muted. They do not want to be seen as policemen The case of the Muchachos is actually fairly typical of the stuff that was widespread during that era. Widespread because the vast majority of violations went undetected. Interestingly, both the Muchachos and the Bridgemen had some of the same instructors. These folks, to my personal knowledge, knowingly used overage personnel. If I knew about it you can bet that plenty of other people knew about it. I guess they felt that, since "they weren't the only ones" , nobody would rat them out because any potential informers were probably equally guilty of the same offense. There were other corps that would not do it, no matter how bad they were hurting, or how many of their alumni offered to jump in and "help out". One corps, a perennial powerhouse, marched kids 10, 11, and 12 years old in spots that could have been filled with overage people. They chose to play it by the rules. They missed the DCI finals for the first time. I must say that there were other reasons for their failure. I was one of them. But the very young kids that did march were not one of them. They were magnificent. They broke their ###eS. They got better every week even though they had to know that they were probably going to be out of it at the end. In the years that followed that corps surged back into the elite group with those youngsters, now seasoned veterans, leading the way. They remained strong for many years. That's the way the "system" is supposed to work. The "win at all cost" crowd deserved just what they got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you personally interviewed every marcher and staffer from the '75 Muchachos, '76 Crossmen, '77 Bridgemen and '84 Eclipses, and confirmed that they knowingly and unanimously colluded to break the DCI age rule. And so you did interview all of them to support your position? But that does not matter!!! A corps is a team; it wins as a team; it loses as a team; one for all and all for one; once the uniform is put on that person becomes a representative of the whole no more or no less important than any other person wearing the same uniform; give me a name of the most important member of any corps of any season (uhhh... sorry, you cannot) and you will see my point; so if one breaks the rules while in uniform all break the rules. That is why it is so very important to have a corps built with people of integrity and honesty not built on winning at all costs. The DQ rule is not the culprit; the innocent were harmed by those who chose to place themselves above the integrity and honesty of the whole thus tarnishing the whole by creating the situation for the DQ to be administered. Note: Please do not go into the "absurd" by applying my views on team and DQ to something like a member committing murder or rape; neither of those actions are applicable to the competitive rules of Drum Corps. Edited October 12, 2011 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) All of this stuff mentioned in the thread is largely based on hearsay, grapevine rumor, drum corps legend, etc. Rules are almost as old as drum corps itself, which goes back decades before anyone dreamed of DCI, ( for you newbies). The American Legion, and the VFW issued Rule Books which were regularly updated and amended. Rules for age limits were always in place, and the individual corps management were always responsible for seeing that they were adhered to. The penalty for violations was clearly stipulated. DQs for age, or other membership violations, unfortunately happened with distressing regularity. Many more corps got away with flouting them than the ones who got caught. DCI, in their almost religious zeal to eradicate the activity's association with the veterans organizations, spent a lot of time getting rid of "restrictions" that were hampering creativity, and a lot of other "stuff" that was quite rightly seen as military "chicken $hi+". Today DCI has very few rules. Even the age requirement has been somewhat muted. They do not want to be seen as policemen The case of the Muchachos is actually fairly typical of the stuff that was widespread during that era. Widespread because the vast majority of violations went undetected. Interestingly, both the Muchachos and the Bridgemen had some of the same instructors. These folks, to my personal knowledge, knowingly used overage personnel. If I knew about it you can bet that plenty of other people knew about it. I guess they felt that, since "they weren't the only ones" , nobody would rat them out because any potential informers were probably equally guilty of the same offense. There were other corps that would not do it, no matter how bad they were hurting, or how many of their alumni offered to jump in and "help out". One corps, a perennial powerhouse, marched kids 10, 11, and 12 years old in spots that could have been filled with overage people. They chose to play it by the rules. They missed the DCI finals for the first time. I must say that there were other reasons for their failure. I was one of them. But the very young kids that did march were not one of them. They were magnificent. They broke their ###eS. They got better every week even though they had to know that they were probably going to be out of it at the end. In the years that followed that corps surged back into the elite group with those youngsters, now seasoned veterans, leading the way. They remained strong for many years. That's the way the "system" is supposed to work. The "win at all cost" crowd deserved just what they got. The bold portion above is one of the best posts I have read in quite a while!!!! Edited October 12, 2011 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 LOL Just wondering Stu...what corps were you associated with. I am only asking because I don't know. Keith: I am currently involved with a corps and am choosing to remain anonymous so that my comments are not taken as representing that organization in any way shape or form. I am not ashamed of any of my opinions and stand behind what I post; but they are my opinions not the organization's. Suffice it to say that I have been involved for many years (an old fart) at various levels within the drum corps activity as a performer, volunteer, and staff member. I engage in these postings out of interest in the vibes and opinions of others, in relationship to my own opinions, so that I can keep my conversations relevent within subjects concerning the best interest of the drum corps activity. So, I hope you understand my reasoning for not disclosing what various corps I have been involved with over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 And so you did interview all of them to support your position? No....that's why I haven't made any statements about whether staff or performers "ignored" or "skirted" rules. Note: Please do not go into the "absurd" by applying my views on team and DQ to something like a member committing murder or rape; neither of those actions are applicable to the competitive rules of Drum Corps. Um, since I didn't do that or anything remotely similar, why are you directing that comment toward me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) No....that's why I haven't made any statements about whether staff or performers "ignored" or "skirted" rules. You do not need to speak with "everyone" to determine what is and is not correct in situations; if that were the case nobody would ever be able to make any determination of guilt or innocence on anything or anyone. What you need to do is just carefully evaluate words from those who were there and compare that to documents associated with a particular situation to get a rather clear snapshot; and then the snapshot determines the validity of accusation. I have been involved with drum corps for many decades, have spoken to many people, and have sifted through enough information over the years to evaluate what happened with the corps in question. SCV staff and members were duped by forgery and lying in '89. However in the early growing years of DCI, many corps staff and performers were aware of this type of cheating and just hoped not to get caught (sort of like the wild west prior to being tamed). Um, since I didn't do that or anything remotely similar, why are you directing that comment toward me? Just a little preventative note injected because some people choose to go into the absurd once their argument begins to lose traction. Edited October 13, 2011 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancerLegend Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No....that's why I haven't made any statements about whether staff or performers "ignored" or "skirted" rules...... I taught at the highest level - the same corps for 4 years. As you go from year to year, you hope to retain kids, and, you really get to know the kids you are teaching. It becomes a close knit circle, you're with each other so often. Staffs have to know how old their students are....if a staff member claims they didn't know a kid was overage - they are either ignoring the kid, or are simply ignorant themself. Two parties are guilty - the member, and the staff/management for looking the other way. Ultimately, the innocent kids who might not know there is an overage member, gets screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHall Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 I guess the question is...Who are we really punishing? In the end the DQ's punish the kids that are "of age". The overage kids walk away, what do they get? The adults take some blame BUT if I were an 18 year old kid in Muchachos in 1975, I would HATE drum corps after that! I would love to hear from those Muchacho members that were there. If what was said was true then... One person forced the disqualification of 134 kids. I don't blame DCI for this, I blame the practices of the past. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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