Muchachos disqualfication controversy

[scvfan]

well, unfortunately, DCI has a long and sad history of corps being booed on the field.  More recent examples being the Cadets in 02 and Star in 93.

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I was at finals in 1993 and don't recall Star being booed. I do recall the entire crowd chanting "No more Jackson" for about 3 minutes right after the rainstorm that showered the Scouts performance was over. I also recall the fireworks backfield getting soaked and smoke covering parts of Star during retreat.

[LancerFi]

yea, what a shame, they fuggin cheated!.....and for your info, the justice was that the Cavaliers were booed mercifully when announced on the starting line at Finals....but by the time the opener of Russian Christmas Music was complete, the boo's turned into a standing ovation after an emotional performance of it.

Real justice and class there eh?

UGH

Wow, MAJOR flashbacks here..

Inspiring, yes. We played our butts off. In fact, the boo's inspired us in prelims too. We took 5th overall, 4th in horns. Pretty good during those "tougher" days in Cavalier history. But in finals, some judge made some questionable scores and we fell to 7th with 27th and Bridgemen beating us.

Not one of the more "prettier" times in drum corp history.

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I have to tell you that in Philly at 1976 prelims we had close to or over a point in penalties. A sideline issue....That may be the reason for the rise and fall between prelims and finals, although I'm not sure if that did figure in.

I don't have the recap at arms length right now. Just an FYI and no disrespect intended of course.

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No disrespect taken. If I remember right, there was a horn judge that dropped us by a point and a half from prelims to finals. Now, we didn't have as good of a show in finals but it certainly wasn't a point and half off. Anyway, it was a tough couple of days for us for many reasons. Crap being thrown at us by the Muchachos from the stands was only one of many.

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I'm sorry, what wasn't a point and half? I didn't follow that.

Anyway, I'm very sorry for what happened to the members, actually to the whole organization. You know, you're ###### if you do and ###### if you don't. But what happened to you should never have happened! I know that I never booed your corps, ever threw anything, etc. As a matter of fact I never asked who gave up Muchachos. It didn't matter to me.

People may say that Muchachos were "ratted out" but, had the members hard work and sweat been thought about, it never would have happened!

I will say that I believe having overage members was more prevalent back then and no nothing makes it right! Also, I would have thought that with their hornline that year, if indeed it was a hornplayer, if they couldn't find someone to play of age, they should have had picks or fill ins. And if it was in another section, you go without the # you wanted originally. We had to do it many times, and most likely other corps did as well.

We had to do it many many times. We could not fill our ranks so we'd have to put someone in who was not playing. So many corps to pick from back then, it wasn't like there were 1,000 people auditioning!

[dc oldtimer]

I'm sorry, what wasn't a point and half? I didn't follow that.

My apologies for not being clearer. After some checking on From the Press Box it wasn't horns where we dropped in, it was GE:

Prelims GE Scores and placement:

Side #1=9.1 (5th), Side #2=9.9 (1st. yes, 1st!), MA=9.2 (5th) Total: 28.4(3rd)

Finals:

8.6 (7th), 9.2(6th), 9.0(7th) Total: 26.8(7th)

Like I said, we were not as "on" as prelims but just look at the placements. If these types of decreases happened today there would be an uproar. Maybe this is exactly why we moved away fromt he tick system.

[LancerFi]

I'm sorry, what wasn't a point and half?  I didn't follow that. 

My apologies for not being clearer. After some checking on From the Press Box it wasn't horns where we dropped in, it was GE:

Prelims GE Scores and placement:

Side #1=9.1 (5th), Side #2=9.9 (1st. yes, 1st!), MA=9.2 (5th) Total: 28.4(3rd)

Finals:

8.6 (7th), 9.2(6th), 9.0(7th) Total: 26.8(7th)

Like I said, we were not as "on" as prelims but just look at the placements. If these types of decreases happened today there would be an uproar. Maybe this is exactly why we moved away fromt he tick system.

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EEEEEK is all I can say.....or more of an UGH maybe!!!!!!

[ironlung75]

I marched in the '75 Muchachos, I haven't read so much BS in my entire life as what is in this string of crap. That day was my 18th birthday; it was August 15, 1975. We had been first on in the prelims because John MacAulffe (MAC) our director was in a pissing match with Pesceone all year. He wanted DCI to give us a break on tour requirements because we didn't have much money. I was in his office one night when they were screaming at each other on the phone. (Although the cigarette never fell off of MAC’s lip) MAC held the application for finals until he got a definition of what we were going to have to do. Pesceone put us on first because the App was late! Angelica would show up to our practices, act like he was a big supporter, then bad mouth us to others in the DCI "insiders" group. We were definitely on the outside and because oif our success, that seemed to tick a number of the DCI “click” ( The Lombard elite) off.

That morning we came off the field at Prelims and Don Warren and Don Pesceone did not approach MAC, they went directly to our only Roto Tom player (That thing sucked anyway) Mike Wade, pulled him out of the ranks physically and asked him for his credentials. Why was Don Warren involved? Warren hated MAC that was for sure. Shouldn’t it have been Briske? There was a guy from Garfield that went to the Cav’s named Romeo who knew Wade and ratted him out. Wade was carrying his wallet with him and just gave it to them. He was 3 months overage. It was wrong. But you have to understand the times and the precedents that we were dealing with. We had guys in our corps who came from many other corps who had people who were 5+ years over age. But who remembers the IC Reveres? You might remember SAC, or St. Lucy’s.

We were told to give our birth certificates to MAC in the middle of the season. We had some guys who were with us from the bad end of Paterson NJ who didn't even know where they were born, much less have documents. Everyone had to scramble to get the paperwork together because we had to have it done to hand in at the first Lowell show. Some guys didn't even live in NJ and Mommy and Daddy weren’t always the biggest supporters of Drum Crops back then. For some of these people it was like leaving home to join the circus or a gang.

I don't know where these people writing this crap come up with 20 over age members. Come on. Jeff Kievit was 20 turning 21 that year. He even marched in the VFW nationals the following year because they used a different timing on when the birth date was eligible. Anyone who said that he was overage is full of it. He was 19 years old when he played lead trumpet for Frank Sinatra while a freshman at U of Miami. OK he was a pro, but he was eligible!

The biggest problem I have with all of this is that over the years I have met at least 10 people who were with other corps that Finals night who were over age. (Actually three of them were pulled for Finals but marched in Prelims. Take a close look at full corps pictures that night vs. prelims, if you could ask Moe Knox he would tell you, he did to me, oh well a lot that did for anyone.) Two were with Madison (I marched with one of them in Cabs), One with Oakland, A few were with 27th and on and on. They told me to my face. I even saw their driver’s licenses! Did their directors know? Who the F knows? Did MAC know? He spent more time fighting with Angelica and Pesceone about touring and the "evolution" of Drum Corps to a new level while our funds were bleeding than checking up on everyone who was trying to get into the corps that year and whether they were dummying up documents.

The bigger question was why then, Prelims morning and why in that way? Romeo knew Wade for years. I know based upon a verified conversation (told to me by a Caption Head years later) that occurred with several of the Directors the night before Prelims that there was a dislike for MAC's style and the way he felt that DCI was treating the eastern corps and their lack of funding to take on the major growth that DCI was planning. The statement was that they had to CORRECT the situation! This group was made up of those who just wanted us out because if we were successful we may have had a say in keeping some of that from happening. And there might be a bunch more corps still around today.

This group of people included Jim Jones who was also concerned about the fact that the Troopers barely made it that night. (And haven't since) The whole effort that DCI was pushing was to improve the quality of Drum Corps and to #### with anyone who couldn’t pay the bills. (That’s why there were over 100 corps in the NJ Legion show that year and now there are not 100 corps period!)

If DCI was so concerned about over age why didn’t we get approached prior to prelims that morning? They said that they had evidence weeks earlier. For those of us who were much younger (I was 18) and many who marched in the corps for over 10 years (some were less than 5 when they started. That’s right we were a real Junior Corps who used to do parades with kids who could barely stand up and hold a drum at the same time.) Did anybody realize how devastating that was to kids? And yes we were kids! Did the “Don’s” have any right to physically pull a member from the ranks as we were leaving the field without involving the director? Given the concern, why weren’t any other corps approached in this manner? Spot checks or something during the season? No this was to try to destroy the corps who was going to upset the master plan by possibly winning despite not having a fleet of busses or even a tractor trailer (We did finally get a new truck that year, not to big, but it was OK for us.)

I would have like to have thought we won the Prelims, the show was clean, but it was 8:30am. I mean come on. We were night people! Would we have won it all? Well I guess no one will ever know, but it could have been one of the most exciting moments for the fans ever. I was in Denver this year and I barely saw anyone stand up at any point during anyone’s show until it was over. OK SCV had one mid show SO. If we were ON for a given night, it was rare that anyone sat down! The week before Finals in ’75 at the CYO Nationals we got a standing ovation that lasted almost as long as the show. And yes we did loose to the Devils at the World Open two nights before because that same Roto Tom player F’ed up a lead into a drum solo and the show was screwed up from the beginning of Pines till practically the exit.

Instructing that corps that year were Dennis Deluccia, Jeff Kievit, Frank Gerris, Jim Messina, Charlie Groh, Jack Mehan the list went on and on. This was not during the times of big salaries either. These people were some of the best of all time. Marching was something else even more; Jim Prime, Don Van Dooren, Joe Koenig, Ed Argenziano, Mike Mercandante, Mike and Tom Durbrow, Marc Dernell (who with Jeff won individuals that year on French Horn) Lou Mondelli, and many more who are either still involved in one form or another, in the Hall of Fame or had great teaching careers after they aged out.

Were we ###### off at Chicago, #### right, their director went after US! A corps member there went after US! Anyone who has any heart in this activity knows when you are attacked by people who are out to get you, you don't sit on your thumbs! Fights used to break out on retreat, I know I was in a few of them over things a lot less that what happened at Franklin Field. And despite the comments about our behavior, we didn't always start them either as some would have you believe.

The whole thing screwed up a bunch of people lives because all we knew was Drum Corps. And if you were truly in the activity you know exactly what I am talking about. I lost several friends who were never able to get their heads straight about it and that's a #### shame. One of my best friends died only two years ago and that’s a long time to have your head so messed up from something that happened 25 years ago. But I guess its like a car wreck, everyone is tittilated looking at the carnage and talking about it afterwards particularly if there is some intregue. Did they win or didn't they? BS!

I am 47 years old now. I don’t enjoy Drum Corps that much any more. I haven’t missed finals in all those years, but I think this is finally the end. I feel sad about the fact that we should have had a chance or an opportunity to correct the situation earlier and that every corps should have been treated the same way, under the same capricious scrutiny, but I guess as in life, things are not always fair. DCI was arbitrary in its actions and I guess if we knew better at the time we could have gotten lawyers and the whole thing that Bridgemen did with court injunctions etc., but it didn’t happen. So stop looking for a smoking gun and think about what we all missed. That was the biggest tragedy of all.

[byline]

This group of people included Jim Jones who was also concerned about the fact that the Troopers barely made it that night. (And haven't since)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You mean made finals? If so, you might want to rethink that fact. Troopers have made finals several times since '75 ('79, '81, '85 and '86, with '85 being their highest placement since '74) . . . though, sadly, not since '86.

Obviously, though, I understand what the touring concerns were. They were part of the equation that brought down my own corps, because the expense of touring so extensively was just too much.

It's ironic that the corps who really fine-tuned the technique of touring--Troopers--have suffered so much because of it. Of course, they had to tour because of their location. But I guess when extensive nationwide summer tours became a mandatory part of competing within the DCI framework, it eventually took its toll on them, too.

As for court injunctions, I'm not sure that would've made any difference, for all the good it did Bridgemen. It only postponed the inevitable (though I do think it's right to question why it was inevitable). Still, your point is well-taken that the real tragedy is what the corps members lost. The same can be said for many different corps . . . for many different reasons. But the whole disqualification situation must be an exceptionally bitter pill for the corps members to have to swallow.

Edited September 27, 2004 by byline

[johnric]

Sue, silly question (because after 85 I went into the service and really paid no attention to DC for about 14-15 years)

is there now instances where corps have had overage members in their ranks and have not been disqualified by DCI?

something about SCV and some european people or something? no flaming please I'm only asking. I thought I saw something about that a while back.

[byline]

Sue, silly question (because after 85 I went into the service and really paid no attention to DC for about 14-15 years)

is there now instances where corps have had overage members in their ranks and have not been disqualified by DCI?

something about SCV and some european people or something? no flaming please I'm only asking. I thought I saw something about that a while back.

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Yes . . . and this has been debated at great length here (and elsewhere, I'm sure). Here's a RAMD post which explains the situation: Santa Clara 1989

I'm sure there are probably many more corps that marched overage members and weren't caught. I can't comment on any of the situations, because I wasn't involved and don't know most of the details. I figure those who were there are way better qualified to comment on it than I am.

However, I think these events attain a sort of "urban legend" status because people always want to speculate on "what if"s . . . including the people involved. I know there was no end of conspiracy theories in Oakland regarding, for example, DCI never allowing there to be a Canadian champion. The whole "top drum score" episode from 1977 was an especially bitter pill for many in the corps to accept, and so I think that naturally gave way to "politics" conspiracy theories. Were they true? Again, it's very hard for me to know because I was never directly involved in any of that. All I ever heard was hearsay and speculation, and while it makes for compelling discussion, it really can't ever go beyond that. And, in the end, it's as my father described it when I used to talk about it: "It sounds like sour grapes." If there were proof that went beyond the speculation, then I'd feel more inclined to believe it. But, of course, these situations rarely have tangible proof. So we basically spin our wheels, and to me, all these years later, it feels like an exercise in futility.

[johnric]

thanks Sue.

and, as I've also stated in other threads, these things happened a long time ago. too many people were hurt. and there is no benefit in rehashing them to death.

[mistertoo]

Two were with Madison (I marched with one of them in Cabs),

Name them. Liar. Madison had birth certificates for EVERY member in 1975; to their knowlwdge and to DCI's, these documents were authentic. Unlike the muchachos. Who were caught cheating. Period.

Madison didn't march any holes at 1975 finals. And nobody came close to beating them that year, not even the cheaters. Case closed.