Muchachos disqualfication controversy

[danguernsey]

I concur with fellow '75 member, Mistertoo. Having marched in 1975 when our membership was about 80% local (immediate Madison area) coupled with the enforced birth certificates, I maintain that we did not have overage members, nor did we have holes at '75 finals. In viewing the '75 DVD, I didn't see any holes in the Slaughter front, nor in the wedge during Rhapsody in Blue. The stability of our local membership was the basis of the Scout successes of the early to mid-1970s. We didn't have to rely slavishly on outside membership to be competitive, nor to sustain ourselves: an improved instructional staff made a bunch of local guys competitive. Dragging the Scouts, Bill Howard, and other corps (Cavaliers) through this debased mudd doesn't reflect well on you, nor the Muchachos. Call me naive, but I think most corps in the top 12 took the high road, attempting to police the problem. Scout management took the matter seriously because we were contending for the title and weren't going to blow it on a stupid overage violation. It appears that your corps chose not to police the situation as thoroughly as it could have. In all, your management did you guys in, not the DCI directors.

In reading previous posts on the '75 DQ and the Muchachos essay in the History of Drum Corps, I get the sense that Hawthorne's zeal to field a national championship corps in 1975 was an act of desparation, a last chance, before the competive winds shifted westward once and for all. I sympathize (and agree) that the formation of DCI initially hurt the eastern corps ($$ problems with touring). The decline of the great eastern corps of the 1960s--particularly Blessed Sac and BAC--and low placements in the early 1970s, especially in 1973, seemed to exacerbate the feeling of dislocation and unease that eastern corps would inevitably be left in the dust. By 1975, Hawthorne's "tolerance" of overage members suggests an ends-justifies the means mindset. Whatever it takes to win, even if it means being lax with the overage rule. It sounds like a Darwinian approach to drum corps--survival of the fittest, an animalistic self-preservation in the face of a dying activity in New Jersey.

Reinforced by the DQ, this attitude multiplied into Hawthorne's heroic victim status. It's a martyr complex rooted in false emotion--vulnerable egos are the very root of heroic myths. Such myths are the product of fearful minds who need to transform the pains and uncertainties of life into a stable, meaningful whole.

PS: In the fall of 1975, we heard from Don Angelica that the Muchachos were 3rd in prelims--about 1.45 down from us. However, as Paul Milano recently revealed, Hawthorne's sheets were never tabulated. And, it seems unlikely that we'll be able to recover, or verify, Angelica's "roundabout" knowledge of the Muchachos's placement.

[mobrien]

Madison didn't march any holes at 1975 finals. And nobody came close to beating them that year, not even the cheaters. Case closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Appreciate your calling him out, though worth pointing out that Madison DID lose to Santa Clara at Whitewater prelims. So it was possible for someone to tag the Scouts - but the Vanguard was the only corps who did.

Thanks Dan G for a thoughtful post. Agree that by 75 there was a shift in performance ideal away from trad east coast style and toward a 'cooler' style of performance ala BD and SCV. Always felt Madison's victory in 75 was something of an anomaly; they totally deserved the win, but in some ways it was a last hurrah for the 'pop' show concept before the west coast style took over completely for a number of years.

Blaming Don Waren or anyone else for the dq isn't worth the effort. A choice was made by corps management to enforce the age rules or not, and the wrong choice led to the dq. Yes it was common back in the day to march overage members, but being common didn't make it right. In the Cavaliers' case, I suspect they wouldn't have pressed ahead if they weren't also secure in the knowledge that they WEREN'T marching overage members - so were simply trying to make the playing field as level as possible.

Edited September 27, 2004 by mobrien

[danguernsey]

Madison didn't march any holes at 1975 finals. And nobody came close to beating them that year, not even the cheaters. Case closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Appreciate your calling him out, though worth pointing out that Madison DID lose to Santa Clara at Whitewater prelims. So it was possible for someone to tag the Scouts - but the Vanguard was the only corps who did.

Thanks Dan G for a thoughtful post. Agree that by 75 there was a shift in performance ideal away from trad east coast style and toward a 'cooler' style of performance ala BD and SCV. Always felt Madison's victory in 75 was something of an anomaly; they totally deserved the win, but in some ways it was a last hurrah for the 'pop' show concept before the west coast style took over completely for a number of years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, the last "power corps" in old school tradition were Madison, Muchachos, and the Kingsmen (mid 1970s). Cavaliers "Russian Christmas Music" fits into that mold also. The opening to Muchachos's "Pictures of Spain" is friggin cool! I have a cassette recording of them at 1974 CYO, which I listen to often. I don't mean to diss Hawthorne, but if someone misrepresents my corps I'll be #### sure to set it straight.

[uncle z]

The opening to Muchachos's "Pictures of Spain" is friggin cool! I have a cassette recording of them at 1974 CYO, which I listen to often.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's "Marianne" that always gets uncle z happy!!!! :P

[mistertoo]

Appreciate your calling him out, though worth pointing out that Madison DID lose to Santa Clara at Whitewater prelims. So it was possible for someone to tag the Scouts - but the Vanguard was the only corps who did.

Prelims? Oh. So SCV got the prelims trophy? Whatever. Madison won every show they went to in 1975. The '76 DCI Program even proclaimed them "undefeated". I guess DCI is wrong and you are right. I stand corrected.

Edited September 28, 2004 by mistertoo

[mobrien]

Prelims? Oh. So SCV got the prelims trophy? Whatever. Madison won every show they went to in 1975. The '76 DCI Program even proclaimed them "undefeated". I guess DCI is wrong and you are right. I stand corrected.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SCV won prelims by .15. Made for a great night show performance from Madison.

Madison had a great year, but weren't undefeated that year. More to the point, Muchachos didn't came close to beating them when they had the chance earlier in August.

Edited September 28, 2004 by mobrien

[mistertoo]

Prelims? Oh. So SCV got the prelims trophy? Whatever. Madison won every show they went to in 1975. The '76 DCI Program even proclaimed them "undefeated". I guess DCI is wrong and you are right. I stand corrected.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not sure what the snottiness is about. Go to corpsreps and look it up. SCV won prelims by .15. It's not because I 'think' so, but because it happened. Made for a great night show performance from Madison.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point is, prelims are just that; prelims. Madison won "the show" in Whitewater, and every other show that year.

[byline]

Prelims? Oh. So SCV got the prelims trophy? Whatever. Madison won every show they went to in 1975. The '76 DCI Program even proclaimed them "undefeated". I guess DCI is wrong and you are right. I stand corrected.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SCV won prelims by .15. Made for a great night show performance from Madison.

Madison had a great year, but weren't undefeated that year. More to the point, Muchachos didn't came close to beating them when they had the chance earlier in August.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh? Are we talking about 1975? On corpsreps.com, Madison is shown in first place in prelims, winning by .8, with Santa Clara in second place: DCI World Championships - Prelims

You'll find the same results on fromthepressbox.com: 1975 recaps

Edit: Ah, never mind. I see from your earlier post that you're talking about Whitewater prelims, not DCI prelims in Philly. And you are correct: 1975 season

So, technically speaking, Madison was not undefeated in 1975, though they came pretty darn close. And they certainly won finals in a convincing manner.

Edited September 28, 2004 by byline

[BD2Rings]

That was an interesting year. There were a few times where BD even beat SCV, but not on a regular basis. If you check the scores from that year, there are a few times where SCV and BD were the top corps, and some of those BD won. Whenever Madison was in the mix, BD was always in third. It seems that BD and Muchachoes would have been close for the third spot without the DQ.

[dc oldtimer]

Madison didn't march any holes at 1975 finals. And nobody came close to beating them that year, not even the cheaters. Case closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the Cavaliers' case, I suspect they wouldn't have pressed ahead if they weren't also secure in the knowledge that they WEREN'T marching overage members

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can guarentee you that. When I moved up from the Cavalier Cadets in '76 I wasn't even let into the door without a clean clear copy of my birth certificate. (I was 14 but still) There were more then a few guys who were of age but were not allowed to practice in 76 until they went to city hall of the city they were born in (mostly Chicago in those days) to get a certified copy.

We were clean.