Question about PR's conducting?

[Ch1k3n]

Hello!

So when I watch videos of Phantom playing Canon, it seems like they start like a few milliseconds after the conductor hits the downbeat and stays like that where the corps is playing a little behind the conductor's conducting. It gets so bad for me that I just scroll down to the comments and just listen because I can't stand having what I'm hearing not lining up with what I'm seeing.

I have noticed this on various PR videos, and am wondering if I'm going crazy or this is how they do it.

Thanks!

[burgerbob]

It's just audio lag. People taping those are usually pretty far away.

[Some Random Drummer]

Hello!

So when I watch videos of Phantom playing Canon, it seems like they start like a few milliseconds after the conductor hits the downbeat and stays like that where the corps is playing a little behind the conductor's conducting. It gets so bad for me that I just scroll down to the comments and just listen because I can't stand having what I'm hearing not lining up with what I'm seeing.

I have noticed this on various PR videos, and am wondering if I'm going crazy or this is how they do it.

Thanks!

I could be completely making things up, but in the symphonic music world, that's pretty normal. In fact, many major symphonies will play up to a half beat or so behind the conductor - the reasoning being that if you played exactly with the conductor, any changes in tempo that the conductor tried to implement would have to be realized in split-second reactions from the musicians. If you play behind the conductor, the person in front can make whatever changes he/she wishes, the musicians can watch and process the changes, and then play accordingly. It's not a huge change, but the extra half a second or so of time to process what the conductor is doing up front can do wonders for a group's musicality.

Perhaps, because of Phantom's close association with classical music and classical tradition, they have adopted this practice? I have no idea. All I know is that the last time I saw the Boston Symphony play, the conductor gave the entire orchestra a massive downbeat, and it was completely silent. Then, a half a second later, the entire orchestra came in at the exact same time with a massive first chord, completely together. It's just something they do.

Edit - Or it's audio lag.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Some Random Drummer

[actucker]

I could be completely making things up, but in the symphonic music world, that's pretty normal. In fact, many major symphonies will play up to a half beat or so behind the conductor - the reasoning being that if you played exactly with the conductor, any changes in tempo that the conductor tried to implement would have to be realized in split-second reactions from the musicians. If you play behind the conductor, the person in front can make whatever changes he/she wishes, the musicians can watch and process the changes, and then play accordingly. It's not a huge change, but the extra half a second or so of time to process what the conductor is doing up front can do wonders for a group's musicality.

Perhaps, because of Phantom's close association with classical music and classical tradition, they have adopted this practice? I have no idea. All I know is that the last time I saw the Boston Symphony play, the conductor gave the entire orchestra a massive downbeat, and it was completely silent. Then, a half a second later, the entire orchestra came in at the exact same time with a massive first chord, completely together. It's just something they do.

Edit - Or it's audio lag.

I've been playing in chamber ensembles and orchestras for a long time and have never come across a single gig where I was asked to intentionally play behind the conductor to increase my ability to react. In an orchestral setting, you're close enough to the conductor and each other to make those adjustments in real time, and a conductor isn't likely to make changes abrupt enough to disrupt the orchestra's ability to stay together. Adjustments like that wouldn't be particularly musical in the first place.

Its probably a combination of audio lag, and the fact that the corps is spread out much farther than they would be in an orchestral setting, creating more delay between their sound production and what they see.

[Some Random Drummer]

I've been playing in chamber ensembles and orchestras for a long time and have never come across a single gig where I was asked to intentionally play behind the conductor to increase my ability to react. In an orchestral setting, you're close enough to the conductor and each other to make those adjustments in real time, and a conductor isn't likely to make changes abrupt enough to disrupt the orchestra's ability to stay together. Adjustments like that wouldn't be particularly musical in the first place.

Its probably a combination of audio lag, and the fact that the corps is spread out much farther than they would be in an orchestral setting, creating more delay between their sound production and what they see.

It probably is, but I should mention that it is most certainly a common practice in major symphony orchestras. Christopher Lamb, the principal percussionist of the NY Phil gave a master class at Northwestern University just a few weeks ago and talked about the very thing. Every major symphony plays far behind the conductor - never on top of the beat or ahead, even with up-tempo music; Bernstein was an excellent example of a composer who asked his orchestras to play behind the beat - sometimes more than a full beat behind!

I'm trying without much success to find an article or something to link you to which explains it better, but so far I'm coming up empty on anything besides blog posts and forum discussions, like these. The best I can find is this article, which mentions:

"We also frequently observed the "spiral of death", where users, in response to a slowdown of musical tempo, slowed down their conducting, which caused a further slowdown of the music tempo, and so on. We hypothesized this phenomenon to be a result of the user conducting to or behind the beat (as if playing an instrument along with the orchestra), rather than ahead of it as conductors are taught to do."

And if the conductor is ahead, obviously the orchestra is behind.

Regardless, I have no idea if Phantom has adopted this trait or not. It's probably just a result of audio lag and, of course, that light travels faster than sound. But this is certainly a trait of many symphony orchestras, too, and given Phantom's close relationship with classical music, it wouldn't surprise me if they adopted it, in part.

Edit: Here's a virtual discussion panel with some musicians from the San Francisco symphony, Chicago Symphony, Memphis, and some others. Some quotes:

Also, every conductor has a different take on where the beat should be. One conductor said that the beat should be when he gets to the top button of his vest on the way up. Another one that I know wants the beat to be at the top of his stroke; that is, he goes down, hits bottom, comes up, and at the top, that's where the beat is.

...

It has been my experience that the best conductors do intend the bottom of the beat to come before the moment of the beat that we play. It seems as though they want to indicate to us by the quality of their beat that we will need to be playing in a certain manner when we get there. If the beat is strong, we'll play with an articulation; if smooth, then legato, etc.

...

In other cases, the conductor or the orchestra develops a habit of keeping a noticeable gap between the apparent impulse from the stick and the corresponding reaction of the players. The size of the gap will vary with the tempo of the music in a predicatble way.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Some Random Drummer

[actucker]

It probably is, but I should mention that it is most certainly a common practice in major symphony orchestras. Christopher Lamb, the principal percussionist of the NY Phil gave a master class at Northwestern University just a few weeks ago and talked about the very thing. Every major symphony plays far behind the conductor - never on top of the beat or ahead, even with up-tempo music; Bernstein was an excellent example of a composer who asked his orchestras to play behind the beat - sometimes more than a full beat behind!

I'm trying without much success to find an article or something to link you to which explains it better, but so far I'm coming up empty on anything besides blog posts and forum discussions, like these. The best I can find is this article, which mentions:

And if the conductor is ahead, obviously the orchestra is behind.

Regardless, I have no idea if Phantom has adopted this trait or not. It's probably just a result of audio lag and, of course, that light travels faster than sound. But this is certainly a trait of many symphony orchestras, too, and given Phantom's close relationship with classical music, it wouldn't surprise me if they adopted it, in part.

Edit: Here's a virtual discussion panel with some musicians from the San Francisco symphony, Chicago Symphony, Memphis, and some others. Some quotes:

Well I'm certainly not playing with the NY Phil, so I can't argue with Lamb, however I wonder if some may be interpreting his comments a little too literally. The article your referencing is correct from the conductor's point of view. The conductor should never be behind the orchestra. That doesn't necessarily mean the orchestra is intentionally playing behind him. Obviously I've never played for Bernstein or in any of the major orchestras. I've never encountered that intent myself, but that's just my experience.

Also, any comments regarding time coming from string players should be disregarded as they do not understand the concept

[Some Random Drummer]

Also, any comments regarding time coming from string players should be disregarded as they do not understand the concept

So true!!

[Crown Phan]

It's common for the conductor to be ahead. I can't watch the Cleveland Orchestra conductor when I go because he is a good half a beat ahead. It does create a greater sense of tempo to ensure everyone is together and has time to react to a downbeat.

[burgerbob]

Yes, orchestral conductors sometimes beat ahead for players to react. In Phantom's instance, that is NOT what is happening. In the drum corps world it's just asking for an accident. Of course, members interpret the hands in different ways depending on environment on the field and off, but not for a standstill.

[Stu]

Or...... it's audio lag.....