Mike B., did you know about.......

[Ghost]

this bit of Cavies history? You didn't march with them at this time, but maybe you have heard a Cavies version of the below story.

Two friends who I marched with in Boston attended the 70 VFW in Miami. I was still with the AF in Deutschland. This is a story by one who was part of the discussion after prelims.

"The prelims were held at Flamigo Park, a high school stadium. Boston went on and did a great job, but XXXXXX XXXXXXXX screamed at them afterwards and told them they sucked, and they should be ashamed of themselves. XXXXX confronted XXXXXX, and told him who the hell did he think he was to talk to the corps in that manner. XXXXX XXXX was furious at XXXXXX. The entire corps left to go back to the hotel. I stayed to watch the rest of the prelims.

Chicago went on and for some unknown reason the PA system was left on and their performance was awful. They were getting feed backs and cross fires.

The Cavs management was screaming after their score was announced, and they told Don Pescone, soon to be the dir. of DCI, that they wanted to go on again since they were at a disadvantage. They called for a meeting of all the corps and it was held in this little cement block room and the temps were in the 90's. Nobody was there from Boston, so I went to the meeting in my bathing suit, and MDC Life Guard Hat. (NOTE: Over the years this person has told this story and in previous versions he mentioned how he was quite vocal about the treatment the Cavies have received over the years.) They finally agreed that the Cavs would go on again, but they did not get to pick the score they wanted. It turned out that Chicago recived an 87 and finished 11th in the prelims. You should have seen their staff weeping. If I am not mistaken, if they had taken the other score they may have not made the finals. It was really strange to see "the green machine" on the starting line at 7:20PM in the daylight at the Orange Bowl. We were sitting with SAC's Alumni and you should of heard the "s---" that was being said.

Chicago finished 3rd. Troopers won, and Boston was second. It was a dam shame, because the corps did a fantastic job, they certainly peaked that evening. After Boston's performance, the guys from SAC said the corps would take it that night."

[BRASSO]

Scores from this show, Ghost :

http://www.corpsreps.com/scores.cfm?view=scoreshow&showid=1970147

[BRASSO]

and then the Finals Scores ( lots of volatility in these days where... " on any given Sunday "... :

http://www.corpsreps.com/scores.cfm?view=scoreshow&showid=1970100

[Michael Boo]

No; I don't recall ever hearing that story.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Michael Boo

[Paul Milano]

I was a rookie in the Cavaliers that year and the story is essentially true.

The first prelims performance was fine, despite the minor feedback from the PA system (only heard by a few corps members). As we later learned, our first score would have been good for fourth or fifth place. About where we probably deserved to be give or take a placement or two.

But a few of our staff members felt that the feedback had caused us to have a worse show than was probably true so they fought for us to perform again, with the right to choose the best score. The judges and corps directors said we could perform again but we would have to settle for whatever the second score was if we did. I don't think we handled the "negotiations" very well and we were already known for being a bit "pushy."

So, we then had to wait for more than an hour before performing again, and were given very little notice when they did tell us to go on again. The performance was pretty good BUT, lo and behold, a two point American Flag penalty was found for the first time all year. Some in our organization looked upon that discovery with suspicion, given the politics of the time, but in all likelihood it was valid.

Either way we wound up going on very early, put on a great performance, and rebounded all the way from 11th to 3rd. Still a disappointment after hoping for better earlier in the year.

In my humble opinion, I don't think we ever beat Troopers that year so their championship seems richly deserved. I probably would have had Sac in second, us third, and Boston fourth, but an argument could be made for any one of the three of us in third, fourth, or fifth.

It was certainly a crazy first championship event for this 16-year old, rookie, marching tympanist!

P.S. Of course if Santa Clara Vanguard would have had the money to make it all the way to Miami that year, we all probably would have been down one placement!

Edited February 21, 2013 by Paul Milano

[BRASSO]

I was a rookie in the Cavaliers that year and the story is essentially true.

Only a few short years earlier than this, Corps competed in Prelims at some of these National Championship shows, minus the Concert. That was really weird for Corps to try and prepare for, as it really threw Corps a real curveball, regarding timing and many other contigencies to be factored in, when practicing in preparation with both the Concert and sans concert. Plus, for many Corps, their concert piece was where they tended to most shine musically, so you never knew going into Finals from the Prelims ( if you were one of the froirtunates to make Finals ) where you realistically sat in relationship to others. Plus, the national Veterans Championships were just chock full of politics in those days, ( more so than even today, imo ) and so it really was a crap shoot as to where Corps would score and place " back in the day ".

[Michael Boo]

Only a few short years earlier than this, Corps competed in Prelims at some of these National Championship shows, minus the Concert. That was really weird for Corps to try and prepare for, as it really threw Corps a real curveball, regarding timing and many other contigencies to be factored in, when practicing in preparation with both the Concert and sans concert. Plus, for many Corps, their concert piece was where they tended to most shine musically, so you never knew going into Finals from the Prelims ( if you were one of the froirtunates to make Finals ) where you realistically sat in relationship to others. Plus, the national Veterans Championships were just chock full of politics in those days, ( more so than even today, imo ) and so it really was a crap shoot as to where Corps would score and place " back in the day ".

Having not been around then, was this similar to the scenario where corps had to play 5-minute prelims shows? I imagine the concert standstills would be the easiest to remove, then just go from the "into concert" to the "out of concert." (I was around when those two terms were still being used.)

[BRASSO]

Having not been around then, was this similar to the scenario where corps had to play 5-minute prelims shows? I imagine the concert standstills would be the easiest to remove, then just go from the "into concert" to the "out of concert." (I was around when those two terms were still being used.)

I believe the Prelims competition was maybe 6-8 minutes. I forget exactly now. But it was definately more than 5 minutes if I recall. It was a set time, I do recall that part anyway. Its true, Corps would basically go into concert, stop, then resume. It got a bit dicey as concerts were not all the same timing with all the Corps, and as quite a few Corps had to put in a few moments of more drill, or take out some of the drill as there could be overtiming or undertiming issues, and Corps coould even be penalized for longer portions of stoppage and just standing doing nothing. DM's would even have to count the seconds off in their head to accommodate the non playing portions before getting the Corps to begin resuming so not to incur an overtiming or undertiming penalty in performance. Corps even tried to gimmick the system so as to play as less as possible within the rules and time provided as this was the age of the " tick system ", and one could not generally be ticked if you were standing still, while other competitors, played and marched more, thus exposing them to potentially more tics. When we look back in retrospect it really was a screwy system the AL and the VFW concocted for the Corps at their Nationals, imo.

[alankarls]

I believe the Prelims competition was maybe 6-8 minutes. I forget exactly now. But it was definately more than 5 minutes if I recall. It was a set time, I do recall that part anyway. Its true, Corps would basically go into concert, stop, then resume. It got a bit dicey as concerts were not all the same timing with all the Corps, and as quite a few Corps had to put in a few moments of more drill, or take out some of the drill as there could be overtiming or undertiming issues, and Corps coould even be penalized for longer portions of stoppage and just standing doing nothing. DM's would even have to count the seconds off in their head to accommodate the non playing portions before getting the Corps to begin resuming so not to incur an overtiming or undertiming penalty in performance. Corps even tried to gimmick the system so as to play as less as possible within the rules and time provided as this was the age of the " tick system ", and one could not generally be ticked if you were standing still, while other competitors, played and marched more, thus exposing them to potentially more tics. When we look back in retrospect it really was a screwy system the AL and the VFW concocted for the Corps at their Nationals, imo.

My recollection is 4 - 6 minutes. We used to refer to it as the four minute show, I believe. I was usually the opener, flag pre and a transition into the exit. Corps tended to pile up at the end line and cross as soon as the four minute gun went off. You wanted to get off the field as quick as possible. Every tenth mattered.

[BRASSO]

My recollection is 4 - 6 minutes. We used to refer to it as the four minute show, I believe. I was usually the opener, flag pre and a transition into the exit. Corps tended to pile up at the end line and cross as soon as the four minute gun went off. You wanted to get off the field as quick as possible. Every tenth mattered.

You could be right.

I think regular full shows and Finals full shows competitions were in the order of 11-13 minutes, no ?

If thats the case, ( 4-6 minute prelims ) did Corps really cut out approx 7-9 minutes of their shows in these Vet National Prelims ? Concerts played wern't generally 7-9 minutes in duration that would be scrapped for Prelims. Did Corps really do 2-3 minutes in prelims, then marktime at the finish line " until the 4 minute gun went off", before stepping over it to finish their show ? I just don't recall it quite this way, but who knows, you could be right, alankarls.