Mike B., did you know about.......

[alankarls]

You could be right.

I think regular full shows and Finals full shows competitions were in the order of 11-13 minutes, no ?

If thats the case, ( 4-6 minute prelims ) did Corps really cut out approx 7-9 minutes of their shows in these Vet National Prelims ? Concerts played wern't generally 7-9 minutes in duration that would be scrapped for Prelims. Did Corps really do 2-3 minutes in prelims, then marktime at the finish line " until the 4 minute gun went off", before stepping over it to finish their show ? I just don't recall it quite this way, but who knows, you could be right, alankarls.

Yeah, it was screwy. A lot of corps stopped practicing the 11 minute show in early august and practiced only the 4 minute show. Often, entire section parts in numbers were cut from the short show to clean up the execution. Some corps got screwed because the timing forced them to lose their main GE numbers. A lot of corps screwed themselves by staying on the field for six minutes, because they didn't plan the short show well enough. It was ugly. It was why placings in finals were often a lot different than prelims. They were judging two completely different types of performance. Those that planned the four minute show well, and practiced it for weeks had an advantage over those that put it together at the last minute.

A story about it. In 1968, the idiot staff of the Racine Scouts figured they had finals at South Milwaukee made, so they didn't write a four minute show. They had the corps run the full show without concert. So they were on the field and judged twice as long as every one else, got a two point penalty for overtime, and missed the finals. Those were the days.

Full shows were always 11 minute minimum.

[BRASSO]

Yeah, it was screwy.

Yes.

There were lots of penalties in those days compared to today. And Corps could lose placements because of it... and inspection results could impact placements.

I recall St. Joe's of Batavia being invited to participate in an Esmass Circuit local ( Ma) show one time that included inspections as Esmass Circuit still had them for Corps. They arrived late,( traffic ) got a 2 pt. penalty ( was waived under the circumstances as they were an invited guest Corps ), then inspection commenced along the starting line, but they really weren't aware nor informed that they'd be inspections. I recall they got buried in tenths and even for movement during the inspections when at attention. It was then agreed afterwards ( and correctly, imo ) to waive all inspections for all Corps that show. Esmass did away with inspections altogether either at the end of that season or the following, as did most circuits either earlier and around that same time.

I do recall ( as you do) how some Corps really planned well for the shortened show during national Prelims, while others seemingly put themselves at a disadvantage by either not following the rules, or not learning how to work the screwy system to their advantage that was essentially foisted upon them by the Vet Organizations.

Edited February 22, 2013 by BRASSO

[Michael Boo]

Before anyone asks why the corps didn't just start at their opener, skip the concert standstill and end before the closer, or start somewhere in the show, skip the concert standstill and finish as normal, it's important to know the following: Corps had to start from the left goal line and end at the right goal line. That required some alterations for many corps.

What I've never heard, and something someone here might know: Was the short show requirement due to having so many corps at Nationals and not wanting to spread Prelims over two days?

[BRASSO]

Before anyone asks why the corps didn't just start at their opener, skip the concert standstill and end before the closer, or start somewhere in the show, skip the concert standstill and finish as normal, it's important to know the following: Corps had to start from the left goal line and end at the right goal line. That required some alterations for many corps.

What I've never heard, and something someone here might know: Was the short show requirement due to having so many corps at Nationals and not wanting to spread Prelims over two days?

I don't know the motive, Michael, maybe others might. But my guess, it might have just been a combination of the two. There were a lot of Corps to be judged at some ( but not all ) of these National Convention Vet Championships, and one would assume they'd not want to bring back the same ( or another ) panel of judges the following day. So my guess they wanted to get it all wrapped up in one days of prelims, and so shortened shows seemed to fit THEIR needs in the rationale for it this way.

As an aside here were the dates of 2 the AL National Drum & Bugle Corps Championships:

1955..... October 19th ( Orlando, fl)

1960......October 16th ( Miami, fl )

Edited February 22, 2013 by BRASSO

[Northern Thunder]

1955..... October 19th ( Orlando, fl)

1960......October 16th ( Miami, fl )

Some of the early conventions were actually held in November.

[BRASSO]

Some of the early conventions were actually held in November.

I can just imagine a Corps from say Buffalo practicing in late October in Buffalo for an outdoor national championship Competition... presumably somewhere warm if its November. Yikes.

DCI and DCA seasons in length are essentially now what?... maybe 7 weeks or so ?

Assuming shows in May ( which Corps had frquently in the 50's, 60's ), a season that runs from May 15th to November 15th would be 24 weeks long. That would be comparable lengthwise to having such a Corps in earlier times doing over 3 years worth of their shows and show practices in 1 year.

Shows seasons even into the late 60's just prior to DCI went from mid May to October for dozens of Corps. Even that was about 20 weeks of a competitive summer season ( and this is not even counting winter indoor standstill competitions that Corps prepared for ). The competitive season today is 7 weeks or so. The corps competition season is really much shorter now, about a third of what it used to be, but this makes sense as its all wrapped around the school schedules these days now. And today they still do 24-35 shows a season and thats on par and in many cases more shows than a lot of Corps did just prior to the formation of DCI. Today they just pack them into a much shorter timeframe.

Edited February 22, 2013 by BRASSO

[Ghost]

I was a rookie in the Cavaliers that year and the story is essentially true.

I don't think we handled the "negotiations" very well and we were already known for being a bit "pushy."

So, we then had to wait for more than an hour before performing again, and were given very little notice when they did tell us to go on again. The performance was pretty good BUT, lo and behold, a two point American Flag penalty was found for the first time all year. Some in our organization looked upon that discovery with suspicion, given the politics of the time, but in all likelihood it was valid.

Several of the top corps used to throw their weight around. A questionable penalty seems odd since many corps felt Tony S. always seemed to love the mid-West corps and he had a history of shady input about who placed where.

In 65, since the judging stopped after the last mm crossed the "finish line", our staff began having the two soprano soloists on "I Wish You Love" march backwards so they'd get to the FL sooner.

[cixelsyd]

Before anyone asks why the corps didn't just start at their opener, skip the concert standstill and end before the closer, or start somewhere in the show, skip the concert standstill and finish as normal, it's important to know the following: Corps had to start from the left goal line and end at the right goal line. That required some alterations for many corps.

What I've never heard, and something someone here might know: Was the short show requirement due to having so many corps at Nationals and not wanting to spread Prelims over two days?

Sort of. I think it was more of a habit that developed back in ancient times.

Field competition was still being organized in the 1920s. The first few American Legion national championship contests were judged parades. Their first field contest was the 1924 finals, but the preliminary contest was still a parade, and "field drill" was essentially just parading around on grass instead of the street. Prelims became a field event for the first time in 1928. From what I have read, the prelim contests way back then appear to have been completed in a single day, and show length varied at times to accomodate the number of corps in the competition.

As we know, things were quite different in the 1960s. Field programs were more complex, and the idea of a preliminary contest taking more than one day had occurred in both Legion (1966) and VFW (1969). Still, both of those organizations had prelim timing requirements that forced corps to cut portions of their drill (not just concert). Go figure.

[BobB]

My recollection is 4 - 6 minutes. We used to refer to it as the four minute show, I believe. I was usually the opener, flag pre and a transition into the exit. Corps tended to pile up at the end line and cross as soon as the four minute gun went off. You wanted to get off the field as quick as possible. Every tenth mattered.

Al, I'm recalling 6-8 minutes for prelim shows for some reason. Going from 11 down to 4-6 would have required some major hacks in the show, and what I remember is just cutting concert plus some other relatively small portion of the show. Not trivial, but not major surgery either. I do remember the piling up at the end line ("wait for the gun!") and squeezing tenths out everywhere; GE pretty much went out the window. We were fortunate to not have to worry about making finals in those days, so we'd usually throw together our prelim shows a few days beforehand.

[Cavie74]

I recall a lot of changes for VFW Nationals prelims. Naturally, "concert" was removed. The real challenge was learning a new drill for the closer where we had to walk off the finish line on side 2. We learned the drill the day before prelims. I think all corps had the same challenge in the mid-70's.

I believe the stories about the 1977 VFW Finale are accurate. Considering we were not the loose corps you see in finale today, we were supposed to be either at attention or parade rest and no talking. But when we were announced in second place where our finals performance was a bump of 2 tenths and Blue Stars was a bump of 2 points ...

Edited February 22, 2013 by Cavie74