Stu Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Except I never called OC 'minor', 'minor league" or 'farm corps' so don't see how my understanding of "minor league" come into play. As for WC needing OC, I'm a firm believe that all "flavors" of Drum Corps (WC, OC, All Age, Alumni-type, Mini, etc) need to be healthy for the activity to survive. In this case you're talking individual corps and I'm talking about the entire group. Somehow you took my post about DCI should be more like PARTS of the major/minor league relations to be that DCI should be like ALL of it. Never said OC should be farm corps for WC. Let's try to circle this back around to the question of Do All Caps Want To Be World Class by looking at the word 'care'; as in do people really 'care' about the OC (ie minors). 'Care' is defined as a person's action such as monetary support through ticket sales, through souvenir sales, and through sponsorships; 'care' also comes from a person through vocal support. Take a look at any team (whether drum corps, baseball, hockey, etc...). Most people 'care' for the major teams, but most could not care less about the minors. Moreover, way more people even 'care' for the worst major team than they do for the best minor team within any sport or activity. Prime Example: On the DCP DCI World Class Discussion Board there are currently 29, 721 topics and 949,696 replies; compare that 'care' to the DCP Open Class Discussion Board which only has 4,178 topics and 37,232 replies. Do the math!!! What percentage of drum corps people actually 'care' for the Open Class??? Does the drum corps activity as a whole 'need' the OC? Yes; just like the higher educational system 'needs' Division III Colleges and Community Junior Colleges. However, while I love and support the DCI OC, and since the OC is not a farm system, the DCI WC corps certainly 'do not need' the OC; and other than the possibility for an OC corps to move into the WC if they so choose the OC does not 'need' the WC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Let's try to circle this back around to the question of Do All Caps Want To Be World Class by looking at the word 'care'; as in do people really 'care' about the OC (ie minors). 'Care' is defined as a person's action such as monetary support through ticket sales, through souvenir sales, and through sponsorships; 'care' also comes from a person through vocal support. Take a look at any team (whether drum corps, baseball, hockey, etc...). Most people 'care' for the major teams, but most could not care less about the minors. Moreover, way more people even 'care' for the worst major team than they do for the best minor team within any sport or activity. Prime Example: On the DCP DCI World Class Discussion Board there are currently 29, 721 topics and 949,696 replies; compare that 'care' to the DCP Open Class Discussion Board which only has 4,178 topics and 37,232 replies. Do the math!!! What percentage of drum corps people actually 'care' for the Open Class??? Does the drum corps activity as a whole 'need' the OC? Yes; just like the higher educational system 'needs' Division III Colleges and Community Junior Colleges. However, while I love and support the DCI OC, and since the OC is not a farm system, the DCI WC corps certainly 'do not need' the OC; and other than the possibility for an OC corps to move into the WC if they so choose the OC does not 'need' the WC. Agree that Div II (my alma mater), Div III (sisters alma mater) and Community College (both started there) are a better comparision than Minor League. No idea of comparing how many people "care" indicates anything. Might as well say that the top WC corps don't need the non-top corps as more people care about the top few. Like I said I think WC needs a healthy activity and all kinds of corps are needed for health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Agree that Div II (my alma mater), Div III (sisters alma mater) and Community College (both started there) are a better comparison than Minor League. That was, is, what I am trying to convey. A real minor league team is constructed solely as a feeder to a major and has no way to become a major; but a Div II school (or OC corps) is not designed as a feeder and therefore can potentially jump to Div I or WC. Do all corps desire to be WC? Probably not; just like Do all Div III schools want to be Div I? Nope. However, in a divisional system, as opposed to a major/minor system, units can make the jump if they so desire. No idea of comparing how many people "care" indicates anything. Might as well say that the top WC corps don't need the non-top corps as more people care about the top few. Like I said I think WC needs a healthy activity and all kinds of corps are needed for health. The word 'care' is applicable when discussing the word 'need'. Can you care for something without needing it? Yes; but Can you need something without caring for it? Nope. Taking this out of the realm of fans and into the realm of the corps themselves... WC corps 'care', or should 'care', about all other WC corps because they 'need' them as competition; therefore within that particular context the only time an WC corps 'needs' to 'care' about any OC corps is when that particular OC corps jumps into the WC. But with a few individual exceptions (ie BD and SCV having their feeder corps in the OC) most WC corps do not have to 'care' about the OC corps because they do not 'need' them as competitors nor to they 'need' them as feeder corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 That was, is, what I am trying to convey. A real minor league team is constructed solely as a feeder to a major and has no way to become a major; but a Div II school (or OC corps) is not designed as a feeder and therefore can potentially jump to Div I or WC. Do all corps desire to be WC? Probably not; just like Do all Div III schools want to be Div I? Nope. However, in a divisional system, as opposed to a major/minor system, units can make the jump if they so desire. OK.... The word 'care' is applicable when discussing the word 'need'. Can you care for something without needing it? Yes; but Can you need something without caring for it? Nope. Taking this out of the realm of fans and into the realm of the corps themselves... WC corps 'care', or should 'care', about all other WC corps because they 'need' them as competition; therefore within that particular context the only time an WC corps 'needs' to 'care' about any OC corps is when that particular OC corps jumps into the WC. But with a few individual exceptions (ie BD and SCV having their feeder corps in the OC) most WC corps do not have to 'care' about the OC corps because they do not 'need' them as competitors nor to they 'need' them as feeder corps. So should WC not care what happens to OC or any other non-WC corps? Well that's a subject for another thread as is Off Topic in the way I am thinking (activity health)....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OC Euph Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 So I was part of the Div 3 champion corps in 2004, The Oregon Crusaders, then I marched the next season where we moved to Div 2, with something around 114 members. We dreamed big time of becoming Division 1 eventually. Not because Div 2/3 was bad, or the "minor league", but because the demands to be competitive are at a much higher level. Entertaining shows should always be a high priority, among providing an educational and compelling experience, but achieving a high level of execution and perfection is amazing and rewarding. Open class shows just naturally don't achieve these levels of execution and perfection to the same degree. You only have to be "Very Good" to medal, while you have to approach perfection to medal in World. This is by no means a way to bad mouth Open. I love watching open class. But to put it into perspective, Oregon Crusaders had an amazing show last year winning gold, but that same show at the same level of execution doesn't cut it to be the best of World Class. MUCH higher standards. Still love these open class shows/corps 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 So should WC not care what happens to OC or any other non-WC corps? Well that's a subject for another thread as is Off Topic in the way I am thinking (activity health)....... DCI? Yes, DCI as a sanctioning entity should and must care deeply about what happens to the OC and the OC corps. As to individual WC corps? With the exception that BD should care specifically about BDB/BDC, SCV should care specifically about SCVC, and the Colts should care specifically about the Colt Cadets, individual WC corps have no required civic duty or responsibility at all to care about the OC or any OC corps (unless, of course, out of altruism they want to). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) DCI? Yes, DCI as a sanctioning entity should and must care deeply about what happens to the OC and the OC corps. As to individual WC corps? With the exception that BD should care specifically about BDB/BDC, SCV should care specifically about SCVC, and the Colts should care specifically about the Colt Cadets, individual WC corps have no required civic duty or responsibility at all to care about the OC or any OC corps (unless, of course, out of altruism they want to). Well I was thinking of the people of these corps that are on the DCI BoD (or however the Hades this is set up anymore) and not the corps as competing entities. I see where you're coming from so we're just looking at this in two different ways. Edited July 22, 2013 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) Well I was thinking of the people of these corps that are on the DCI BoD (or however the Hades this is set up anymore) and not the corps as competing entities. I see where you're coming from so we're just looking at this in two different ways. Without going too far down a rabbit trail (ha, ha) therein is the huge conflict of interest. What might be best for DCI might not be best for for a particular corps, and what is best for a particular corps might not be whats best for DCI. To that end a DCI Board Member must act in the best interest of DCI not any individual corps, and a Corps Director must act in the best interest of his/her individual corps not DCI. Ergo, in my opinion, to eliminate that conflict of interest Corps Directors within DCI should only act as an Advisory Council to the Board (with voting rights only consisting of electing/firing the Board). This is why WC directors as Board Members never have really voted in the interest of the OC (and why should they when it does not benefit them as WC corps). This is also why the G7 directors who were on the DCI Board were looking out for their own corps not DCI (because it is the responsibility and duty of each corps director to place their own individual corps needs first). Edited July 22, 2013 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike78Mello Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 ...What might be best for DCI might not be best for for a particular corps, and what is best for a particular corps might not be whats best for DCI.... Herein lies the challenge for Open Class drum corps, and for those of us interested in expanding drum corps. DCI is an association of World Class members that functions for the good of its members (WC corps). There is no fiduciary responsibility of the DCI Board of Directors to consider the interest of Open Class. Unless something has changed recently, there are upper-placing DCI member corps that still advocate fewer drum corps and fewer services to Open Class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Agree with the last two posts as the harder it is (thinking more expensive) for corps to survive, the harder it will be for them to even think about how their votes affect other corps. So many problems, so few solutions or even good guesses.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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