Old Fogey Realization #583

[PhantomR]

ha, no, definetely not.

I'm to opinionated about things, and I am WAY to stubborn.

~>conner

[manoloblahniksabre]

Those were always my sentiments, anyway. I don't see how, even in the days of the tick system, scoring wasn't subjective. In an activity like this, it is completely impossible to avoid, though I'm guilty of of saying "corps X is better than corps Y" myself, out of sheer habit, knowing better.

Here's to Indy, Indyway. :)

[GMichael1230]

Well, count me in on that shuffleboard deck also :P. Even though the main reason I loe drum corps is the competition aspect of it all, Nikk is once again right on the money. I, like George, dont even stay for the scores at most shows, instead dash for the car to get out before the crowd does !! LOL

I would never appreciate a "no score" format, but I am really just not as intense in the hunt, or maybe the competition aspect is losing its lustre. Many of my favorite shows never made top thre, and some of my most beloved corps never won the title, or made finals.

Again, a very telling, and honest post. Good work Nikk.

~G~

[phanreg]

Amen Nikk.

[Orpheus]

I'm exactly the same way. I cherish the competitive aspect of the activity, and I love lookin' at scores and dissecting recaps as much as any fan. But I also try not to get too caught up in 'em. If a corps comes in first place, that doesn't mean I have to love their show. And if my favorite show of the season doesn't break the top 5 or even the top 12, that won't make me like it any less. Finally, I may not always agree with the judges or understand what they do, but I have a great deal of respect for their knowledge and for the difficulty of what they're asked to do. And I still think that, even though they're subject to the same kinds of personal preferences and subconscious biases that we all are, they're really just trying to perform their job to the best of their ability.

P.S. I'm also always amazed by the "armchair judges" here on DCP who think that they can successfully adjudicate all eight captions simultaneously. We all have our opinions, and me no less than anyone, but when people seem to claim that their own is somehow more informed and accurate than the collective opinions of the eight or nine judges at the show that evening, I just have to shake my head. I may not always stick to it, but when I'm talking about hornlines or General Effect or whatever, I do try to say things like, "I think ..." and "From what I heard ..." I certainly do try not to say things like, "Corps X deserved to place above Corps Y."

P.P.S. "Dude! How could (insert corps here) drop 0.9 in percussion in one night? That judge is on crack or something, man! Sheeee ..."

Edited July 31, 2005 by Orpheus

[vferrera]

The real question is whether DCI is better with competition or without it.

If the competition is bogus, DCI is better off without it.

If the competition is fair, DCI is better off with it.

You seem to be saying that DCI is better off without competition.

[George]

competition drives one another on the path toward excellence - it is a critical part of the activity

I think what Nikk's saying is he's evolved beyond that being a major focus of his (as have I) but for young members, staff, fans etc it is still a major motivator, source of interest & fun... Nothing wrong with fun competitiveness.

[bd5times]

I am resolving to just enjoy the shows, and to simply enjoy the process instead of worrying who is beating whom. It's nice for the kids marching if they win a title, because that feeling must be tremendous...but frankly, no matter what happens Finals Night, our lives will go on as before.

I came to that realization quite some time ago. It's nice to see "my" corps still doing well. But, I don't worry about their placement or any other corps placement.

I just want to see great time corps.

[Tsar Nikk]

The real question is whether DCI is better with competition or without it.

If the competition is bogus, DCI is better off without it.

If the competition is fair, DCI is better off with it.

You seem to be saying that DCI is better off without competition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said competition was bad....far from it. What I AM saying is that it drives the members to excellence, and drives the staffs to come up with better ideas.

But as fans...come on. The scores don't affect our enjoyment of the shows.

I guess what I am trying to say is that competition is good for the corps themselves and the members, but doesn't really do much for the fans...or rather, SHOULDN'T do much for the fans. As fans, all we should worry about is being entertained. Does our favourite corps have a great show? If the answer is yes, then great! Because as much as we wish the world shared our opinions, you are likely to find exponents of every viewpoint on any given issue.

To sum up:

Competition in drum corps = Good.

Scores importance to me = Not as much.

[xmenjeffb]

It's just a crapshoot guys. 

Heck, this isn't baseball or football, where runs or points are scored objectively and there is a clear-cut winner and a clear-cut loser.  This is more like ice skating, or gymnastics...it all boils down to OTHER people's opinions of who is better.

We try to pretend it's not subjective.  We write treatises and have complicated judging sheets that have "boxes" on them with cryptic-sounding phrases like "Players exhibit the best possible control and most highly developed concept of sound production" (which really just means "PLAYERS SOUND GOOD") and "The program always displays quality substance and depth" (which really just means "THE SHOW IS ONE THAT I LIKE").

And even though these are criteria, it is STILL OPINION.  NOTHING in any of the "boxes" on the back of a typical adjudication sheet can be called SUBJECTIVE, because every person can interpret (and probably back it up) the criteria in their own ways.

Take 8 judges and sequester them for the entire 2005 season...open up the room tonight and make them judge Indy, and do you honestly think you would see the same kind of results you've been seeing all year?  Bring 8 judges from the year 1990 in your custom DeLorean (with flux capacitor standard), give them the sheets to study for a week, and plop them down tonight in Indy.  Can you imagine the ruckus?  Can you fathom the results?

If a judge dares to give a number based on what he feels he saw that night, and that number happens to be 1 point lower than last show's number, he gets lambasted.  And if he decides to follow recent trends, he gets accused of "slotting."

People constantly post on DCP "Corps X should be beating Corps Y in brass/percussion/guard HANDS DOWN" without really even knowing what it takes to try to adjudicate at that level.  It's the same as in any sport, the Monday morning quarterback has become the Sunday Morning Adjudicator.

And frankly...I've been full of sh1t.  Whenever I have said stuff like "Star should have won in 1990" or "Cadets were better than Cavaliers in 2000," I was full of it.  I DON'T know who was better those years, because I was not on the field and in the stands at the same time.  Because while I am a musician and feel comfortable comparing and contrasting brass, and while I am a drill designer and feel comfortable comparing and contrasting visual, I could never judge percussion or guard.  What I should have said was "I LIKED Star 1990 better than _____" or "I LIKED Cadets show better in 2000."  Because no matter how official we all try to sound, and how self-important we make ourselves out to be (raises hand: Guilty!), we still don't know 1/10th as much of the process as we like to think we do.

Find any year of DCI, and you will find some people who think that Corps X got screwed.  There is no such thing as a consensus winner...you can find someone to debate every DCI champion since 1972, because we all have different opinions.  Judges are better trained, but better trained in what?  In finding mistakes?  In getting more of the nuances that our "untrained" mind cannot?  In finding connections between themes, or seeing that transitions stay in phase through a move, or making sure a guard member's wrist isn't cocked in a weird angle when they toss a flag?

It's a crapshoot.  And it doesn't really affect us.  Every year, only 128/135 kids experience the "joy" of being #1.  Does that mean that the summer was worthless to a couple thousand other kids?  Heck no!  I marched in four corps that never got a ring...and wouldn't trade the experience.  I've given the Cadet Borg a lot of guff, but you know what?  They're just protecting their own.  We all do the same, to a certain extent, and every corps has its own Borg contingent.

I have a tremendous respect for the judges, and a severe distaste of the judging system. I root for the Phantom Regiment harder than any other corps, but have found myself rooting for just about every other corps at one point or another.

We all get so wrapped up in the scores...me included.  But you know what?  I KNOW Regiment is not going to win the title this year....and I don't care.  I love this show.  I loved 2003, and 1997, and 1993 and 1991 and 1989 and etc. etc. etc. I'll go on record as saying that if Regiment never wins another title, I'll be ok with it...as long as they blow my face off most of the time, and have fantastic and pleasing shows and try their best.

I am not a tree-hugging liberal hippy, and I still love competition.  I don't want to go to a baseball game where they don't keep score, and I DON'T want to go to an exhibition-only format in corps, because I think competition pushes excellence.  But frankly, I am starting to care less and less about the scores, especially since the system is still so very open to abuse, whether its conscious or subconscious.

I am resolving to just enjoy the shows, and to simply enjoy the process instead of worrying who is beating whom.  It's nice for the kids marching if they win a title, because that feeling must be tremendous...but frankly, no matter what happens Finals Night, our lives will go on as before.

::shrug::

God, I hate getting old.  :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well Nikk , I am a tree hugging liberal hippy and i totally agree with you . That either means you are getting older or the world is ending !!

Jeff