decompressed Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Well Nikk , I am a tree hugging liberal hippy and i totally agree with you . That either means you are getting older or the world is ending !! Jeff <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Let me run for my bomb shelter then!!! b**bs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vferrera Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 I never said competition was bad....far from it. What I AM saying is that it drives the members to excellence, and drives the staffs to come up with better ideas.But as fans...come on. The scores don't affect our enjoyment of the shows. I guess what I am trying to say is that competition is good for the corps themselves and the members, but doesn't really do much for the fans...or rather, SHOULDN'T do much for the fans. As fans, all we should worry about is being entertained. Does our favourite corps have a great show? If the answer is yes, then great! Because as much as we wish the world shared our opinions, you are likely to find exponents of every viewpoint on any given issue. To sum up: Competition in drum corps = Good. Scores importance to me = Not as much. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I understand and also agree to a certain extent - leave before the scores are announced and you go home happier. But I also wish this weren't the case. I'd like to be able to enjoy the performances and feel that the outcome was as fair as possible within reasonable constraints. Unfortunately, I don't think DCI succeeds on the latter count. A certain amount of "post-hoc debate" is healthy for the activity, and perhaps essential. A critical part of any subjective scoring system is that it be open to review. Most competitive activities have this in one form or another. For example, in baseball, you have TV announcers analyzing every umpire call in graphic detail and with the benefit of slo-mo hindsight. DCI should be no different. Judges should have to defend their scores. It's the best way to keep them honest. Yes, as I get older, drum corps necessarily becomes a smaller part of my life. It will never give me the "highs" I experienced when marching. How can it? But even though I spend less time on it, I still want it to be an overall satisfying experience, including the competitive aspect. For my kids' sake, I'd also like some semblance of the activity to exist for the next 15-20 years. I don't think the activity can survive without fair competition. That essentially obligates me to be a "sunday morning judge". It's a win-win :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matye Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Great thread ... I agree that scores aren't the be-all and end-all. But, being scored by judges does give the staff and corps members the chance to go through the effort to improve. From the smallest to the largest corps, these folks who go through all the blood, sweat and tears to perform to their highest ability, have my undying respect and gratitude. Now ... where's the geezer bus? Grandma (Ma) Tye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lieut. General Effect Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 (edited) It's just a crapshoot guys. Heck, this isn't baseball or football, where runs or points are scored objectively and there is a clear-cut winner and a clear-cut loser. This is more like ice skating, or gymnastics...it all boils down to OTHER people's opinions of who is better. We try to pretend it's not subjective. We write treatises and have complicated judging sheets that have "boxes" on them with cryptic-sounding phrases like "Players exhibit the best possible control and most highly developed concept of sound production" (which really just means "PLAYERS SOUND GOOD") and "The program always displays quality substance and depth" (which really just means "THE SHOW IS ONE THAT I LIKE"). And even though these are criteria, it is STILL OPINION. NOTHING in any of the "boxes" on the back of a typical adjudication sheet can be called SUBJECTIVE, because every person can interpret (and probably back it up) the criteria in their own ways. Take 8 judges and sequester them for the entire 2005 season...open up the room tonight and make them judge Indy, and do you honestly think you would see the same kind of results you've been seeing all year? Bring 8 judges from the year 1990 in your custom DeLorean (with flux capacitor standard), give them the sheets to study for a week, and plop them down tonight in Indy. Can you imagine the ruckus? Can you fathom the results? If a judge dares to give a number based on what he feels he saw that night, and that number happens to be 1 point lower than last show's number, he gets lambasted. And if he decides to follow recent trends, he gets accused of "slotting." People constantly post on DCP "Corps X should be beating Corps Y in brass/percussion/guard HANDS DOWN" without really even knowing what it takes to try to adjudicate at that level. It's the same as in any sport, the Monday morning quarterback has become the Sunday Morning Adjudicator. And frankly...I've been full of sh1t. Whenever I have said stuff like "Star should have won in 1990" or "Cadets were better than Cavaliers in 2000," I was full of it. I DON'T know who was better those years, because I was not on the field and in the stands at the same time. Because while I am a musician and feel comfortable comparing and contrasting brass, and while I am a drill designer and feel comfortable comparing and contrasting visual, I could never judge percussion or guard. What I should have said was "I LIKED Star 1990 better than _____" or "I LIKED Cadets show better in 2000." Because no matter how official we all try to sound, and how self-important we make ourselves out to be (raises hand: Guilty!), we still don't know 1/10th as much of the process as we like to think we do. Find any year of DCI, and you will find some people who think that Corps X got screwed. There is no such thing as a consensus winner...you can find someone to debate every DCI champion since 1972, because we all have different opinions. Judges are better trained, but better trained in what? In finding mistakes? In getting more of the nuances that our "untrained" mind cannot? In finding connections between themes, or seeing that transitions stay in phase through a move, or making sure a guard member's wrist isn't cocked in a weird angle when they toss a flag? It's a crapshoot. And it doesn't really affect us. Every year, only 128/135 kids experience the "joy" of being #1. Does that mean that the summer was worthless to a couple thousand other kids? Heck no! I marched in four corps that never got a ring...and wouldn't trade the experience. I've given the Cadet Borg a lot of guff, but you know what? They're just protecting their own. We all do the same, to a certain extent, and every corps has its own Borg contingent. I have a tremendous respect for the judges, and a severe distaste of the judging system. I root for the Phantom Regiment harder than any other corps, but have found myself rooting for just about every other corps at one point or another. We all get so wrapped up in the scores...me included. But you know what? I KNOW Regiment is not going to win the title this year....and I don't care. I love this show. I loved 2003, and 1997, and 1993 and 1991 and 1989 and etc. etc. etc. I'll go on record as saying that if Regiment never wins another title, I'll be ok with it...as long as they blow my face off most of the time, and have fantastic and pleasing shows and try their best. I am not a tree-hugging liberal hippy, and I still love competition. I don't want to go to a baseball game where they don't keep score, and I DON'T want to go to an exhibition-only format in corps, because I think competition pushes excellence. But frankly, I am starting to care less and less about the scores, especially since the system is still so very open to abuse, whether its conscious or subconscious. I am resolving to just enjoy the shows, and to simply enjoy the process instead of worrying who is beating whom. It's nice for the kids marching if they win a title, because that feeling must be tremendous...but frankly, no matter what happens Finals Night, our lives will go on as before. ::shrug:: God, I hate getting old. :P <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You mirror precisely my thoughts on this. I have had only a cursory interest in the scores and placements for many years now. And I'm as competitive as the next guy having coached High School Basketball. I go to the shows to be entertained, meet friends I've maybe not seen for awhile, and support the activity. For your information, as a subscriber to DCI Pass, collectively, there is no other single Corps I find myself enjoying the music more than that of........ Phantom Regiment. Edited July 31, 2005 by Lieut. General Effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsar Nikk Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 Let me run for my bomb shelter then!!! b**bs <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Evan! FSU 24 UF 14. You heard it here first. ^0^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decompressed Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Evan! FSU 24 UF 14.You heard it here first. ^0^ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> We shall see my friend.....we shall see! May the best team win. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocketman Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Every year, only 128/135 kids experience the "joy" of being #1. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But if we're really lucky, 270! Rocketman - sorry, I had to go there, I see the writing on the wall ampssuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
posaune10 Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Heck...I'm not even that old, (Aged out in '94) but I'm already coming to the realization that SCORES ARE IRRELEVANT!! It helped by being in Indy last night...I already know which tracks on this years CD's are going to get a lot of play. For me, Crossmen, and SCV; two corps who are having "down" years. But you know what, they entertained the heck out of me, and for that....thanks, guys!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 I cherish the competitive aspect of the activity, and I love lookin' at scores and dissecting recaps as much as any fan. But I also try not to get too caught up in 'em. If a corps comes in first place, that doesn't mean I have to love their show. And if my favorite show of the season doesn't break the top 5 or even the top 12, that won't make me like it any less. Finally, I may not always agree with the judges or understand what they do, but I have a great deal of respect for their knowledge and for the difficulty of what they're asked to do. And I still think that, even though they're subject to the same kinds of personal preferences and subconscious biases that we all are, they're really just trying to perform their job to the best of their ability. That's pretty much where I stand, too. P.S. I'm also always amazed by the "armchair judges" here on DCP who think that they can successfully adjudicate all eight captions simultaneously. We all have our opinions, and me no less than anyone, but when people seem to claim that their own is somehow more informed and accurate than the collective opinions of the eight or nine judges at the show that evening, I just have to shake my head. I may not always stick to it, but when I'm talking about hornlines or General Effect or whatever, I do try to say things like, "I think ..." and "From what I heard ..." I certainly do try not to say things like, "Corps X deserved to place above Corps Y."<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Now hang on - corps Y is definitely better. Have you even seen corps Y this year? :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsar Nikk Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 That's pretty much where I stand, too.Now hang on - corps Y is definitely better. Have you even seen corps Y this year? :P <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pshaw! Are you kidding me? Corps Z is da diggity bomb, and don't you forget it. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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