"...close to 50,000 in attendance..."

[ptr250]

Why you feel the need to call me ignorant is beyond me.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You people are so sensitive!!! Please show me where I have called anyone ignorant!!! I ask you to look at the reality of the activity today vs. thirty three years ago and you say I’m making it personal. Would DC have faired any better if it was still controlled by the vets. No one can say with any certainty. Look at the number of corps that existed in 71 vs. today. DCI was formed because the top corps wanted more control of the money and the creative opportunities. The reason they used for this seizure was that under their guidance DC would grow and flourish. Do you really believe DC has grown and flourished under their guidance?

Mike you marched at a time the east was full of some really good to great corps. Blue Rock, St. Joes, 2-7 and the Muchachos are just a few of the gone, but not forgotten. The mid-west and west have also lost as many or more top corps. The decimation has been even greater with the small corps. Along with the loss of corps has come an equal loss of shows. I can remember having a show almost every night on tour. Some during the week were very small, maybe 500 in attendance. The weekends were reserved for the big shows.

Oh I can hear the great roar from the DCI defenders. It’s not DCI’s fault that corps mismanaged their funds. In reality it was DCI’s insistence that corps tour nationally that caused the financial pressure that led to the downfall of so many. Don’t forget that history tends to repeat itself. The current rise in fuel costs is going to put tremendous financial pressure on everyone next year. It will be interesting see if DCI does anything to address the upcoming crises.

What should have DCI done differently? Instead of the emphases on national tours DCI should have (be) been promoting regional tours. The devil is in the details, but here is a general idea. The country is split into three regions, west, mid-west and east. The corps compete in their respective regions until two weeks before finals. At that time each region holds a regional championship. The top three from each region along with three wild cards (based on score) would advance to finals. The elite twelve would then travel to the location of finals during the final two weeks (competing along the way). Finals would rotate within the regions and DCI would subsidize travel expense for all twelve corps. D2 & 3 would follow the same model. I & E would still take place, but quarterfinals would be eliminated (saving stadium rental). Prelims could be broadcast just as quarters are now. Anyway this is food for thought.

[MiamiSun76]

The stands in Foxboro weren't exactly empty ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The mising element here is what's left unsaid. Everyone knows that NFL stadiums seat around 65,000 - 70,000. To say that there were 50,000 in attendance conjurs up an image of 50,000 in a 65,000 seat venue (keping in mind that most of the real world doesn't know that we use only one side of the field). It would look absurd to claim a sellout crowd of 30,000 in what most people know is a facility at least twice that size.

[Jeff Ream]

Here's my deal, though -- and I think it was 2CoolVK who said this on another thread -- if there were much more than 25K at finals, let's imagine that 35K people bought tickets and went ... well, those last several thousand people are gonna have really crappy seats.  You really wanna pay to watch a drum & bugle corps show from halfway in the endzone?  I wouldn't.  If I was late to buy tickets for whatever reason and couldn't get a decent seat, I'd just plan to go to Allentown or Indy or someplace and actually be able to see and hear the corps like they're meant to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it seems 41000 people had no issue with it in 1981

[Jeff Ream]

I just don't see why you think that counting the number of people who attend championship week events is the only (or necessarily even the most important) way to measure how healthy DCI is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

actually, i think finals attendance is an indicator of the circuit's health.

imagine the NFL had great numbers during the regular season, then at the Super Bowl only 20k showed up.

then again, seeing ANY concrete numbers..not like comparisons...but real hard stats would go a long way to either shutting people up or feuling the flames more.

[drumcat]

You people are so sensitive!!! Please show me where I have called anyone ignorant!!!

It will be interesting see if DCI does anything to address the upcoming crises.

What should have DCI done differently?  Instead of the emphases on national tours DCI should have (be) been promoting regional tours. The devil is in the details, but here is a general idea. The country is split into three regions, west,  mid-west and east. The corps compete in their respective regions until two weeks before finals. At that time each region holds a regional championship. The top three from each region along with three  wild cards (based on score) would advance to finals. The elite twelve would then travel to the location of finals during the final two weeks (competing along the way). Finals would rotate within the regions and DCI would subsidize travel expense for all twelve corps.  D2 & 3 would follow the same model. I & E would still take place, but quarterfinals would be eliminated (saving stadium rental). Prelims could be broadcast just as quarters are now. Anyway this is food for thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm impressed you finally offered an idea. Interesting, flawed, but an idea for a change, nonetheless.

To answer your question, though I had before, you told me that I had to pull my head out of the sand regarding this attendance issue. Maybe you missed me saying that I don't care what DCI said, and that it was immaterial to the question at hand. The only question at hand was the common methodology of event-crowd estimation. I agreed that DCI followed what is a common method that can occasionally be deceptive by its nature, but one that is commonly used. I used the golf tournament example, stating the argument.

Your statement of "IF" DCI will do anything... I think you truly fail to comprehend that DCI is, literally, all of the drum corps and are represented by their executives. You must think that some entity hands down edicts to its subjects, the corps. But the truth is that it's not how it works. I tried to emphasize this in an earlier post, but I don't think it got through. You worked for SCV. SCV = 1/21 of DCI. Just like a congress, members get a vote. Whether they do anything about the "upcoming crises" makes me laugh. Doomsday statements like this aren't based in reality.

Paul, your continued basis for success is how many people show up. How about a different approach... profitability. In the case of non-profits, solvency. Does any of this "better than the 70's" baloney matter if they don't stay financially solvent? No. It doesn't. But the key logical fault that you present is that DCI, as a congress, gained more control over the finances of these shows. Instead of drum corps receiving the leftovers from the VFW (no disprespect, vets), they were left with little control, little freedom, and an uncertain future. The formation of DCI was to gain control for the drum corps, and to steer their own destinies.

Above all, Paul, drum corps has received what it has always wanted under DCI, and that is the respect of the music world. In the 70's, you didn't see music programs emphasize marching music to make a well-rounded band teacher. Playing techniques were coarse, and often not respected. Musicianship, in the eyes of academia, were very marginal. After 30 years of fighting to get away from that, you now hear a rep from NAMM calling DCI the "pinnacle of academic music"(pp). You may not agree, but the corps of today are much, much more musically talented than those of yesteryear. Again, that's only pointed out as factual, not individual, nor disrespectful. There was much talent in the 70's with individual players, but overall, I think it's pretty open and shut.

I won't even go into the touring logistics that you present -- uncertainty of dates will never fly, however. I think you are on to something, but on a different scale. In my own opinion, it's D2/3 that needs to be regionalized. Personally, I'd like to see D2/3 finals at worlds done away with. I'd like to see 4-6 region championships for D2/3, and then allow them to compete at D1 finals (only 3 days, I&E on Friday morning). However, the allure of D1 corps, especially to kids, is that it's a national tour. Also, corps get paid based on shows they perform at, so you probably couldn't cut two weeks off of shows.

I'm glad you're taking the idea route though. We can all debate those ad infinum.

[ssorrell]

I couldn't care less what the attendance at finals or any other major show was. What matters to me is the total number of unique fans we have that attended shows across the nation for the entire summer.

I've been a MAJOR drum corps fan, participant, and supporter since the late 70s. I marched four years and served over a decade combined on staff/management of a Division 1 corps. But, I haven't attended a major DCI show since 1996. I travel to every local show within an hour of home, but I simply can't afford the time to go to regionals, much less World Championships.

For a decade after aging out, I wouldn't have missed a finals for anything. but the deeper I got into adulthood and parenthood, my priorities changed. I could no longer book a flight and take a long weekend for finals. I couldn't leave a day earlier to make a long drive (or in the case of Denver, a couple of days earlier). So, why does my attendance not count in determining the "health" of our activity?? Do I have to have attended world championships to have made a difference?

When I try to draw in new fans, I would NEVER invite them to any major event. For a new fan, those can be LONG and boring. It's so much better to invite them to a smaller local show, with a taste of the best the activity has to offer. Traffic is less stressful, the crowds are not as thick, the time devoted to the show is maybe 3 hours, and of course, it costs MUCH less to attend a small show.

If you want to know the true barometer of how well we are bringing in new fans, check out the local small shows. forget world championships...that is only for the die hard fan.

The ESPN2 show has given me the opportunity to tell a few people that have some kind of interest in marching music about our activity. My local high school band, filled with kids that live in very rural areas with very limited exposure to the activity, will know about this telecast. It might increase their interest. I've told a lady who has a grandchild that is a beginner trumpet in another local band about it, so she can spread the word to her family. If they become more interested, I'll give them all the info they could possibly need about shows once the tour is announced for next season. The airing of DCI on ESPN2 will have increased my chances of helping to expand this activity to people that otherwise would not be exposed to it. But it will only help on the smaller and more local level...not at Championships.

The local show crowds that I have witnessed over the last few years seemed to have grown. It doesn't matter that the shows are more cerebral than their 80s counterparts, the people are there in the stands buying tickets and in the marketplace buying souvies. DCI is expanding its reach and that is a good thing. But no matter how great this ESPN2 offering is, don't expect it to push the attendance up at world championships next season. Think smaller. Look at the local shows. That's were it makes a difference, IMHO.

[^Michael^]

I couldn't care less what the attendance at finals or any other major show was.  What matters to me is the total number of unique fans we have that attended shows across the nation for the entire summer.

<snip>

The local show crowds that I have witnessed over the last few years seemed to have grown.  It doesn't matter that the shows are more cerebral than their 80s counterparts, the people are there in the stands buying tickets and in the marketplace buying souvies.  DCI is expanding its reach and that is a good thing.  But no matter how great this ESPN2 offering is, don't expect it to push the attendance up at world championships next season.  Think smaller.  Look at the local shows.  That's were it makes a difference, IMHO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good thougts, Steve. I believe you are right on the money with your assessment and methodology.

[jwillis35]

It's amazing to me how so many are up in arms over attendance figures or what some paper said about total attendance. Whether it's 50,000 or 30,000 for all three nights, that is still a lot of people. You cannot compare years. VFW finals did NOT draw 30,000-person crowds every year, and neither has DCI. And with DCA's popularity on this board, they draw what? Certainly not 30,000 people for their finals. I am so sure ESPN or even PBS is ready to market those old VFW championships. NOT!!!

Good grief, it is what it is. Times have changed, our economy has changed, and that alone has had a dramatic effect on cost, travel, work schedules, and social impact on the younger generation vs. the old. To meausre the health of drum corps by only looking at attendance on finals night is rediculous. One must also mark the temperature of today's music, it's culture, and we must hold it against the balance and health of the economy.

Our economy has dictated a way of life that many of us fail to acknowledge, mainly because we are knee deep in its grip. It is a fact that today more women and men who are married are both working when compared to the 60s, 70s, and 80s (whether they have kids or not). This is largely due to both men and women continuing their career paths, and also because they need the money. This has an effect on travel schedules, since finding time in which schedules align for vacation is difficult to do. Then there is the issue of cost, and this includes the corps who must raise mucho funds to participate in this expensive activity. And it is expensive, but there is not much we can do about that. This overly busy lifestyle, the need for money, and the desire to push for better careers has changed our culture dramatically from the latter half of the 20th century. Divorce is up big time, and more people are in debt than ever before in this country. The importance of family has been hit hard, and there is not much in today's pop culture that supports fixing it.

In addition to these problems, many old-timers have moved on. Not just because this brand of drum corps may not be their cup of tea, but also because they are getting old, and for many it is difficult travel. And for some of those that still like to get out and enjoy the corps, DCA is the way to go for them.

The younger generation has been exposed to a completely different culture. Those in this genertation that march corps still gain incredible experiences, and they, for all intents and purposes, represent the best and brightest students, but their target audience (those of the same age group) is vastly different from my era or perhaps yours. Marketing to young people today seems to involve a combination of glitz, glamor, popularity, style, instant feel-good rewards, and a kind of "this is the place to hang out" type message. You see it in the beer and cigarette commercials, the travel shows, the entertainment shows, the late-night talk shows, the constant talk of sex on TV and in the movies, and certainly it is drummed-up in the music they listen to. None of these things bring light to the importance of good music, such as that of the symphony orchestra, the wind band, the jazz ensemble, or even drum and bugle corps. And it's not like drum corps is not trying to please its fans. Every kid marching is doing that, and every staff member that creates a show is trying their best to teach and entertain.

We know that many of the fans range from young to old, new to very experienced. But the future is with the younger generation, and that presents the gtreatest challenge for DCI and its corps.

And someday, this challenge will hit DCA as well.

Jonathan

[Penguin]

I won't even go into the touring logistics that you present -- uncertainty of dates will never fly, however.  I think you are on to something, but on a different scale.  In my own opinion, it's D2/3 that needs to be regionalized.  Personally, I'd like to see D2/3 finals at worlds done away with.  I'd like to see 4-6 region championships for D2/3, and then allow them to compete at D1 finals (only 3 days, I&E on Friday morning).  However, the allure of D1 corps, especially to kids, is that it's a national tour.  Also, corps get paid based on shows they perform at, so you probably couldn't cut two weeks off of shows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As if interest isn't already low enough in II/III.

[^Michael^]

It's amazing to me how so many are up in arms over attendance figures or what some paper said about total attendance.  Whether it's 50,000 or 30,000 for all three nights, that is still a lot of people. You cannot compare years.  VFW finals did NOT draw 30,000-person crowds every year, and neither has DCI.  And with DCA's popularity on this board, they draw what?  Certainly not 30,000 people for their finals.  I am so sure ESPN or even PBS is ready to market those old VFW championships.  NOT!!!

Good grief, it is what it is.  Times have changed, our economy has changed, and that alone has had a dramatic effect on cost, travel, work schedules, and social impact on the younger generation vs. the old.  To meausre the health of drum corps by only looking at attendance on finals night is rediculous.  One must also mark the temperature of today's music, it's culture, and we must hold it against the balance and health of the economy.

<snipped for brevity>

We know that many of the fans range from young to old, new to very experienced.  But the future is with the younger generation, and that presents the gtreatest challenge for DCI and its corps.

And someday, this challenge will hit DCA as well.

Jonathan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jonathan,

Great post! Your thoughts seem rational, objective, and well organized. Also, I must say that I agree, from personal observation, with every word you wrote. Unfortunately, I fear that your words will fall on mostly deaf and/or cynical ears. But, if you've only opened a few eyes to the realities of our contemporary culture and society, you've accomplished a yeoman's task.

Thank you!

Respectfully,

Michael Terry (the elder0