dbc03 Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Maybe the real question is......what if Crown and Cadets didnt switch staffs..but uniforms... Do you honestly think that Crown and the Cadets were on the same level this past summer that if they switched uniforms Crown would have won? If you can't see a difference between the levels of execution of the two corps then don't go appyling for any judging positions any time soon... It takes more than years of tradition to win... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shostahoosier Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Do you honestly think that Crown and the Cadets were on the same level this past summer that if they switched uniforms Crown would have won? If you can't see a difference between the levels of execution of the two corps then don't go appyling for any judging positions any time soon...It takes more than years of tradition to win... Sigh... :sshh: give me a break and get over yourself...it was hardly a serious question... The premise of this thread is somethin aint it? I will agree with everyone on the fact that the Cadets have much stronger talent then Crown...but I think the gap between the two corps isnt as large as some people have been making it out to be. Crown has been having record setting audition camps year after year. Crown beating Cadets would be really tough...but not impossible. SCV had incredible talent last summer too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazzmanSA80 Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 (edited) In response to the statement that history has anything to do with a corps success, I agree and disagree. It of course doesn't increase scores (at least I would hope not) as was implied by a few individuals. It does of course help draw talent. Crown is building a legacy for itself, and quickly. If CC continues to develope, the level of talent will increase more and more as it has been for some time. Who can say who plays a more challenging book? Cadets may have a lot of challenging and exciting stuff in their show, but Crown def. plays with superior style. I refuse to admit that the level of style and exposure Crown played at in '05 isn't comparable in difficulty to the Cadets book. Who is to say honestly, though. I smell top 5, maybe even top 3, before Crown's second decade at the rate they are progressing. Edited December 20, 2005 by JazzmanSA80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upperleadlove Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) If you can't see a difference between the levels of execution of the two corps then don't go appyling for any judging positions any time soon... Hmmm... If the judges that DCI currently has can't see the differance then what needs to be done with them? Should DCI give you a call??? I'm thinking a big NO on that one. Execution is not the issue... execution was a major part of the game for both corps. Crown was visually executing in areas of performance better than the Cadets for a small chunk of the season according to your beloved judges. In the end it came down to GE, level of difficulty, and what the program had to offer. Crown got beaten fair and square. To even debate what would happen if the staff of both corps were to switch is totally ludacris. Both corps perform certain things in very distinctive ways because of the traditions that they have established or are trying to establish. Donnie VanDoren has served as a caption head at the Cadets... Did they sound like Star when he worked there? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Rosie Miller worked at the Cavaliers from 94-00... is Crown's guard technique anything like the Cavies? NO! I think that Crown is trying to play its own game with out being compared to other corps... to set itself apart from everyone else. The Cadets have well established traditions and one would think that it would be expected of the staff to uphold those traditions. What if the Cadets visual staff just decided that they would do left foot step-offs from now on? I can only imagine what kind of chaos that would bring to these forums! I do however think that this has been the most random, yet thought provoking thread that I have seen on here in a while. This site is always good for a friendly giggle and I would like to see more threads like this. Edited December 21, 2005 by upperleadlove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowend Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I agree, and I have an opinion about what the issue is. I honestly believe the limiting factor is the arranging style of Michael Klesch (notice I didn't say that HE was the problem....) In going back and listening to his arrangements through the years, he simply does not write the demand into the shows that are needed to score more highly. Granted, his arrangements give a nice full sonority, but you notice there is little meat in the book of the mellophones. The sopranos stay in a pretty static range. Rarely do you hear any sixteenth notes. If a) Crown uses a different arranger that could increase demand more (i.e. a Jay Bocook) or they choose a show concept that allows for more flowing movement of lines, then they could get the GE and brass scores higher and make an even larger push upwards. I've played Klesch's marching band arrangements for the past two years. We liberally edit them to make them interesting to play. Most all of them are in F Concert, with the trumpets topping out around high D. Two trombone parts, etc. The stuff we've played of his that's been good is stuff that was originally arranged by others. Even his West Side Story stuff wasn't that good. The big rub is that Larry Kerchner was the band's arranger for many, many years before our new director took over. Why the director dumped Kerchner for Klesch is beyond me. I've never been anything but bored by Klesch's stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I've played Klesch's marching band arrangements for the past two years. (snip) I've never been anything but bored by Klesch's stuff. So his marching band arrangements are exactly the same as what he would write for a top 6 drum corps?? Quit while you're behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I've played Klesch's marching band arrangements for the past two years. We liberally edit them to make them interesting to play. Most all of them are in F Concert, with the trumpets topping out around high D. Two trombone parts, etc. The stuff we've played of his that's been good is stuff that was originally arranged by others. Even his West Side Story stuff wasn't that good. The big rub is that Larry Kerchner was the band's arranger for many, many years before our new director took over. Why the director dumped Kerchner for Klesch is beyond me. I've never been anything but bored by Klesch's stuff. I assume these were custom charts...as one who has edited arrangements by others...and who is now the wind and percussion arranger for the band I work with, a few comments... Larry is a great arranger...the first band I taught, in 1971, used custom wind charts by him...they may have been his first band charts...or close to it. Or first wind chart was a take on his "American Salute" he had written for Blue Rock. Michael is also great, of course. You said Larry worked with your band and former director for many years...he probably had a great rapport with the person, and may have received a lot of detailed information on exactly what to write...and how...for your band. A working relationship over many years like that can only help the arranger know the limits to write. Even if he had not received a lot of detail...working over time like that would have given him insight into your particular band's skillset. A new director bringing in a different arranger will take time...for the two of them to understand each other....for the two of them to understand just what and how to write for your individual band...I would guess that at first the charts would be written a little 'safe' to make sure they were not OVERwritten for your band's capabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowend Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 So his marching band arrangements are exactly the same as what he would write for a top 6 drum corps??Quit while you're behind. The arrangements of his that were drum corps shows were almost note for note transcriptions (West Side Story, a condensed Appalachian Spring, a re-arrangement of Jim Prime's Chester). The other stuff we get has either been done by UMass already or has been mediocre to unplayable. Over the course of three years, there have been two charts he sent which had to be scrapped. This was a big-time college marching band that went from playing some of the most difficult Kerchner charts (direct transcriptions of stuff he did for Bridgemen to custom stuff just for our band) to easy Grade 3 Klesch stuff. 50% of the blame goes to the director for accepting that stuff, 50% goes to Klesch for writing it. One quick example: Klesch did an arrangement of In the Stone for the band this year. There was the Kerchner arrangement in our library -- no comparison between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 In the Stone??? You're killing me. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubamann Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) The arrangements of his that were drum corps shows were almost note for note transcriptions (West Side Story, a condensed Appalachian Spring, a re-arrangement of Jim Prime's Chester). The other stuff we get has either been done by UMass already or has been mediocre to unplayable. Over the course of three years, there have been two charts he sent which had to be scrapped. This was a big-time college marching band that went from playing some of the most difficult Kerchner charts (direct transcriptions of stuff he did for Bridgemen to custom stuff just for our band) to easy Grade 3 Klesch stuff. 50% of the blame goes to the director for accepting that stuff, 50% goes to Klesch for writing it. One quick example: Klesch did an arrangement of In the Stone for the band this year. There was the Kerchner arrangement in our library -- no comparison between the two. Did it occur to you that maybe your band's budget did'nt allow for superior custome arrangements?? MK writes good stuff, corps and bands..I have heard both. Believe me when I say there is no man (except maybe Chuck N.) that is more versed in music or is less maticulous about the music he is working with.. OR>>> He was too busy polishing his 4 DCI championship rings and his Jim Ott trophies to write great arrangements!! ^0^ Edited December 21, 2005 by tubamann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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