Why do G soprano bugles give a more characteristic trumpet sound...

[dcpguy1111]

I guess what I'm trying to say here is...compare those soprano solos that BD interspersed throughout their shows in the 80s (86, 88, 89, etc.) to trumpet solos in shows like Blue Devils '04, Phantom '05, Cadets '03...there's just no comparison. They just don't sound like trumpets, at all, and the sopranos, well, did.

Dude, that's definitely the player, not the horn. I don't think you should add BD 04 to that though, those guys were monsters, you can't tell me they didn't have an amazing sound. Cadets 03 were up there too. Basically, I don't really understand what you're complaining about.

[CornoBehnke]

Bb is a brighter key then G on Trumpet... Phil Smith is not marching, if the kid blasts it will have a brighter tone then phil smith playing. Bb is popular because it projects the best, but if the kid has a bright unfocussed sound, it really does not matter, that's why Gs sound more like Bbs. You could get away with more and it would still be a dark sound. Its late at night, I hope I make sence...

Edited May 19, 2006 by CornoBehnke

[dcpguy1111]

Bb is a brighter key then G on Trumpet... Phil Smith is not marching, if the kid blasts it will have a brighter tone then phil smith playing. Bb is popular because it project the best, but if the kid has a bright unfocussed sound, it really does not matter, that's why Gs sound more like Bbs. You could get away with more and it would still be a dark sound. Its late at night, I hope I make sence...

I get the gist of what you're saying.

Seriously, you really can't blame the horns. A good player can make a piece of crap sound amazing, so yes, it really is mostly the guy blowing the thing. Now I'm talking trumpet soloists right now, for the most part except for obvious mentions trumpets seem always have a weak, thin, sometimes shaky sound. I hope I'm not the only person who hears this.

[PR_ducky]

Gs had a bigger bore so they were a bit more forgiving when you really blew hard.

Bflats get REALLY thin when you do that and you get the sound you are talking about.

[Medeabrass]

I always wondered if it's just that trumpets don't project as well outside. When I marched I always thought it was the soprano that had the brighter sound and was more unforgiving to the player. When we did the first year of Brass Theater we played both Gs and Bb's throughout the show. The difference in tone quality was astounding. I had never seen a first hand comparison in an ensemble setting and when we would go back to G's we would think eeeew that doesn't sound quite right. It could be that the G's were harder to tune as opposed to the sound the produce (memory is failing me now).

In the Appian Way, everybody but the sops played bugles. We actually had them using cornets instead. After DCI switched to Bb I started to change my mind and favor sopranos over trumpets (atleast for the outdoors). It could also be that the sopranos were just able to blend into the sound of the rest of the ensemble better because all of the instruments were in the same key and conical bored. Maybe the characteristic sound of the trumpet is just so different from the rest of the Bb ensemble that they tend stick out. This wouldn't explain the solos though.

[arrangerx]

It is the player, the whole player, and nothing but the player.

Two prime examples that I've heard in person on both G Bugle and Bb Trumpet:

1) Greg "Harpo" Blum - Colts sop soloist for many years, made famous by his upper register craziness from 1980 - 1982. He still guest solos with Indiana University Marching 100 when they need someone to come in and demonstrate what a screaming solo should sound like. Whether a piece of junk 2 valve bugle or a state of the art Bb trumpet -- the SOUND was the same.

2) Al "Goober" Chez - Garfield Cadets soloist for many years, with a sound that was crazy big as he got older (just listen to 1980 - 1982 and hear the progression). Now plays with Paul Schaeffer's CBS Orchestra among other studio gigs. Sound is like a house coming at you even on his worst day.

It is most definitely the player.

Should we talk about all the weak G bugle soloists through the years? There were more than a few. Certainly their efforts were appreciated, and they put their hearts into it, but in the end. . . could not ignite the stadium.

My prime examples (with apologies to these guys): 1981, 1982, 1983 Freelancers. These guys were musical, had technique, and the gumption to stand up in front of a crowd and do their best. But. . . big sound was not something that ever described these guys' playing.

Other examples? Any Sky Ryder show after 1981. They has some guys in 1980 and 1981 that were the definition of "on fire". After that, the ranges got lower and tones smaller. Very noticeable since they still tried to feature the sops in the same way -- but with less success.

1984 Garfield Cadets: solo at the end of "Tonight" -- small sound.

And on and on and on. . .

I don't want to pick on people. The point is, those players in the 80's Blue Devils would have made a kazoo sound big -- because they could PLAY!

Shows today are not written around soloists. That's just the cycle we're in right now. Was the guy in 2004 Blue Devils a great player? He was! High chops all day long -- yet -- the way it was featured made his playing come across as pretty one-dimensional, and because the range was nearlyl always into the higher ledger lines, he had an audible but thin sound on his double-C's.

Players. It's all about the players.

best,

Chuck Naffier

Edited May 19, 2006 by man of the ages

[profhill]

I guess what I'm trying to say here is...compare those soprano solos that BD interspersed throughout their shows in the 80s (86, 88, 89, etc.) to trumpet solos in shows like Blue Devils '04, Phantom '05, Cadets '03...there's just no comparison. They just don't sound like trumpets, at all, and the sopranos, well, did.

You have a different concept of what a trumpet should sound like. My ideal trumpet sound CANNOT be created on a G bugle.

Listen to seom recordings of great trumpet players, Winton and Allen Vizutti come to mind. That is what a trumpet should sound like.

[CozyChopsCom]

It is the player, the whole player, and nothing but the player.

<snip>2) Al "Goober" Chez - Garfield Cadets soloist for many years, with a sound that was crazy big as he got older (just listen to 1980 - 1982 and hear the progression). Now plays with Paul Schaeffer's CBS Orchestra among other studio gigs. Sound is like a house coming at you even on his worst day.

It is most definitely the player.

<snip>Chuck Naffier

Mr. Naffier:

'Tis such a pleasure to see such an esteemed persona pitch-tune in here!

I agree the player makes a huge difference. Al Chez is a perfect example. Taking his full sound to Tower of Power and to Paul Shaffer's gig has helped put drum corps out there to others. To help that monstrous sound, Chez plays a Wild Thing trumpet, which like a Callet trumpet, is partly conical.

Chez is being inducted into the Buglers Hall of Fame July 1 along with Buzzy Bergdoll, Jeff Kievet, Bonnie Ott, Mike DelVecchio, et al., a worthy honor.

Thanks for your input! I still cherish a '03 piece of yours I got to play that whole summer.

To the person who posted Bb out-projects G -- No!

[JamMan]

The common complaint in other topics seems to be "Bb's don't sound like a trumpet!" How can an instrument not sound like itself? Wouldn't the sound produced by it be the sound produced by it?

I know this is not literally what you people mean, this is just what happens when I actually think about something.

[trptjock]

If the main discussion is on sound quality, you should note that the bore size of the instrument and the key in which it is built in do play a role in what is percieved to the audience. The "G" horn was built for outdoor playing ONLY. I have never seen anyone (in my 20 years of professional performing) take a G bugle into an orchestra, concert band, jazz band or funk band and use it because it DOES NOT blend with anything else in the section or in the ensemble itself. The "B-flat" is made to be a multi-faceted instrument that can perform in both venues...well.

The "G" horn in comparison to the "B-flat" horn has many modified components that give it the sound that you consider "a true trumpet sound" when the G bugle is not a trumpet at all-it is a bugle.

1. The bell flare on the old "G" horns was considerably more conical much like the flare of a flugelhorn (to a point). The flare on the "B-flat" horn is more tapered to get a very focused sound at one specific spot in the audience or on the performance venue.

2. Outside of the flare is the bore size (how big the horn is internally). The "G" horn was standard at a .468 bore (at least my Kanstul was). Standard B-flat bore size is between .459-.464. The difference between the .459 and .464 is the difference between a "Medium Large" Bore and a "Large Bore" horn. The other instrument that comes with a .468 bore is considered an "Extra Large Bore" horn. Both Schilke, Besson, Kanstul, Holton and Bach (on special order) have instruments that use this "Extra Large Bore" size.

3. The other thing to consider also is that the instrument (the bugle) is more of a conical bore (gradually gets larger throughout the instrument) horn while the trumpet is a cylindrical bore (internal size remains the same througout).

Now, if you were to take a Holton MF Horn with a .468 bore onto the field for a competition, it would still get this "thin non-trumpet" sound (even though it is a trumpet to begin with). The reason why is that the bell flare is still tapered like that for a trumpet. The Kanstul "Collesium" Trumpet does feature a .470 bore (larger than the G bugles) and has a large flare to the bell-similar to that of the G bugles. The drawback is that this horn is very hard to play due to the fact that it is TOO BIG. Spirit from JSU had used these "Collesium" Trumpets for some time before switching to the Yamaha Xeno RGS. The Kanstuls were harder to play in tune with each other due to the bore size and the resultant tone was not like that of the "Normal" B-flat sound. The Xeno RGS that we use now is a very versatile horn with its reversed leadpipe construction (which makes the horn blow freer) and its "Medium Large Bore" configuration. It still blows open, but has a trumpet sound to it.

4. Another thing to ponder is this, orchestration and arranging. The "OLD SCHOOL" days of drum corps when the soprano soloists were in the stratosphere may have sounded like gods with a thick, full, rich, (insert catch phrase here) sound. But in reality, they were still playing a Minor 3rd lower than that of the B-flat. So if the soloist was playing "Double C's" during their solos (on a G bugle) it was an "A" above the C above the staff. This is still impressive, but not nearly as high as many would percieve because the entire hornline was playing on G bugles.

With the soloists of today, the writing hasn't removed the instruments from the extreme upper register. There are still soloists that play well into this register with ease, but it (their sound) does not carry as well, because the upper register no longer has the same effect as it did 10-15 years ago. Blue Devil Soloists play a "Double C" and it doesn't have the same tone because, the overall sound quality changes from one pitch to the next, especially within a certain register. That can be due to fatigue (body and lip), mouthpiece selection, airflow, and where it is in the music.

Yes, there may be people that can play up to "Double C's" in thier warmup or in the show, but you can never really hear them unless the corps does not play in order to hear this "EFFECT" by the trumpet soloist. Listen to the recent soloists and see where in the music their "Double C" comes in. More often than not, it will be when no one else is playing or when the soloist (s) are on the front sideline because this instrument (or their sound quality) won't carry past a certain physical place on the field. This obviously takes into account the fact that the instrument is highly directional and facing away from the crowd (as opposed to facing the crowd) will make the sound softer. Also, if the soloist is still on the front sideline and faces backfield, you can still hear them play due to acoustics. If you had that same person play that high note facing backfield on the center of the field, you may not hear them as well, unless you have back stands to bounce the sound off of.

The writing of todays drum corps have not changed, they still write in the same registers as they did 15 years ago. The talent pool has improved, but most of the corps members are still developing as trumpet players physically. The fact that you may have one person play a "Double C" at the end of a warm up or chorale or some piece of music is impressive, but it does not really come OUT of the ensemble texture due to the fact that all hornlines are looking for a BLENDED SOUND. In fact, the sound is often thin and unsupported because that particular person may not know how to play the instrument well. The corps just may be using this person because he has freak high chops and so they use him for effect.

Many judges are now looking for "Individuals Sticking out of the ensemble" and they will deduct points from the score because of that. Even if the effect is desired in the horn book. The tone quality must match player to player, and the desired effect must be EXACTLY that a "Desired EFFECT". It should sound like an extension of the chord with a resultant high overtone above the ensemble. If you listen to the Cavaliers over the past 5 years, they do not have people "Stick out" of the ensemble, their overall balance and blend is quite good if not great. Most concert bands don't sound as good as they do...and they are MARCHING!

The arguement that the G Bugle gets a better "Trumpet" Sound is a farce, because the G Bugle is exactly that...a bugle. Not a trumpet.

If you want to hear good trumpet sounds, listen to these performers:

Niklas Eklund (Baroque trumpet-with no valves)

Crispian Steele Perkins (Baroque trumpet-with no valves)

Maurice Andre (piccolo trumpet)

Haakan Hardenberger (soloist)

Jens Lindemann (soloist)

Eric Aubier (soloist)

Pierre Thibault (soloist)

Guy Touvron (soloist)

Phil Smith (orchestra)

Adolf Herseth (orchestra)

William Vacchiano (orchestra)

Frank Kaderabeck (orchestra)

Micheal Sachs (orchestra)

David Bilger (orchestra)

Thomas Stevens (orchestra)

Anthony Plog (soloist)

Jeff Curnow (orchestra)

Chris Martin (orchestra)

James Watson (orchestra and soloist)

Howard Snell (orchestra and soloist)

Maynard Ferguson (early 1950's-70's)

Doc Severinsen (anything)

Tony Kadelek

Roger Ingram

Wayne Bergeron

Bobby Shew

Rick Baptist

Charlie Davis

Walt Johnson

Lynn Biviano

Wynton Marsalis

Clifford Brown

Woody Shaw

Tom Harrell

Ingrid Jensen (jazz soloist)

Bibi Black (soloist)

Susan Slaughter (orchestra)

Charles Schluter (orchestra)

Ray Mase (soloist)

David Hickman (soloist)

Sergie Nakaraikov (soloist)

Allison Balsom (soloist)

Rex Richardson (soloist)

Armando Ghitalla (orchestra and soloist)

Allen Vizzutti (soloist)

Rafeal Mendez (soloist)

Arturo Sandoval (jazz soloist)

The real question now becomes, who has a true trumpet sound. They all play trumpet. They all are great players. They all have recordings available. They all have studied trumpet at some point in their careers.

The answer is: THEY ALL DO.

The only one with drum corps experience is Chris Martin-Spirit 1993, now pricipal trumpet of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.