Bugles VS Trumpets

[mchromik]

QUOTE(Braun452 @ Jul 29 2007, 11:46 PM)

There is also something to be said for the level of talent coming into the drum corps community now and days. With high school and college music programs being as demanding as their are, using Bb and F horns makes it easier to utilize the players already finely tuned ear for that key, thus resulting in better musicality from the individual.

I agree with 'lips. In fact, I'll stretch that to include playing on a Bb trumpet in different keys. Playing in F will present different intonation problems than playing in A or C. Ear training is ear training - even back in the days of G-D bugles.

I don't think anyone would argue this point. I always enjoyed the switching back and forth between the G mello/G flugel and the Bb trumpet back in the day. the transition to G and back again is no big deal. Actually it was the lack of action my 'third button finger' got that caused me more problems. Again not an issue today.

All these points are really pointless until you can come up with a working financial model that makes the case for G horns make sense. Both for the corps and the manufacturers. The performance differences in the horns cannot make up for the financial differences. I understand the passion for them, but that is not enough to drive the vast majority of units to purchase dead end G horns from the last two manufacturers who will make them, for however long that lasts.

[Martybucs]

Is there anyone with practical experience in the manufacturing differences between G instruments and comparable Bb/F instruments.

I mean, I know how they're made, I've seen videos, but does anyone here, know that it is really that complicated to manufacture one over the other?

The tubing would be slightly longer, but the bores are similar or the same at the valve sections, the most expensive part. The designs are usually the same, in the soprano case, a cornet design.

That said, it is obviously more costly to be able to make two different keys of horns, but the process is the same, so I don't see that it is all the hard to make one over the other and if people are willing to buy a quantity of G bugles...I would make the change over.

I say this because I work in manufacturing and I know that most operations are pretty flexible, with the exception of those set ups and industry models where overwhelming demand and production must be realized. But if some one comes into our place and says, "we need these made", and they have the money - we make them.

Instruments are pretty much hand made. I see it as the foreman saying, "Someone ordered 60 bugles. We're making G bugles today."

That's my speculation, I'm sure you have yours, but does any one know for sure?

Edited September 27, 2007 by Martybucs

[G-horns]

Insruments are pretty much hand made. I see it as the foreman saying, "Someone ordered 60 bugles. We're making G bugles today."

That's my speculation, I'm sure you have yours, but does any one know for sure?

I wouldn't be surprised if this was always the case. Otherwise, the G bugles would have unique components rather than common ones.

[Shadow_7]

When I toured the Kanstul factory, they were saying that they only make something like 4,000 horns(of any type) a year. Which is about a dozen a business day. And they make some horns for other brand names. And a fair percentage of their horns are custom jobs not mentioned on their website.

The problem with G marching brass is the design. There's not much market incentive to come up with competing/pro designs. And some of the existing designs suck for some of the voices. Even though other voices in the same line are on par with some pro horns. Since 2000 only a handfull of corps have purchased new G brass(Troopers, Marines D&BC, Kilties). Assuming they all came from the same manufacturer, it'd only account for about 200 instruments over the past ten years. Which would be about 0.5% of Kanstuls production volume over the same time frame. There probably wouldn't have been that many sold if the drumcorps activity wasn't so rough on horns.

[Martybucs]

When I toured the Kanstul factory, they were saying that they only make something like 4,000 horns(of any type) a year. Which is about a dozen a business day. And they make some horns for other brand names. And a fair percentage of their horns are custom jobs not mentioned on their website.

The problem with G marching brass is the design. There's not much market incentive to come up with competing/pro designs. And some of the existing designs suck for some of the voices. Even though other voices in the same line are on par with some pro horns. Since 2000 only a handfull of corps have purchased new G brass(Troopers, Marines D&BC, Kilties). Assuming they all came from the same manufacturer, it'd only account for about 200 instruments over the past ten years. Which would be about 0.5% of Kanstuls production volume over the same time frame. There probably wouldn't have been that many sold if the drumcorps activity wasn't so rough on horns.

I see your point.

However, I don't see limited quantity being an issue. The process of manufacture is the same, the skills needed are the same, the materials used are the same and for the most part interchangeable. It is the design which varies a little.

How a tube is bent and into what shape, is very easy to manipulate. I don't really see economics being a deciding factor in determining whether or not say, G bugles vs Bb trumpets are made, as long as someone is willing to buy.

From my experience, which is many decades, most marching brass and bugles are very sturdy student model designs and I've played most brands, they all seem pretty good to me.

[Shadow_7]

From my experience, which is many decades, most marching brass and bugles are very sturdy student model designs and I've played most brands, they all seem pretty good to me.

Well, from my perspective. If you had your choice of brand new horns from any decade for your dream set of bugles for your hornline. Would you choose currently produced models on every voice? From a single manufacturer? Or would you favor K-80 Euphs, Ultratone Baris, K-60 Frenchies, and whatever other models that are no longer being produced?

I'll agree that there's not really any complete duds of the existing selection for G bugles. But given a choice, there are a number of models I would rather not pay my money to acquire.

[Einstein On The Beach]

So what happens when these college music kids have to play a C trumpet or Eb alto,F mellos?

Guess what ,,they adapt and get a better education because of it.

It doesn't even have to do with the key of horn, it's the quality and WHAT the person is playing on it. I can switch between my Bb and C very easily, know the tendencies on each etc etc. But listen, I'm not running around a FOOTBALL FIELD for 3 months playing FFFF on the C trumpet. Since you never marched junior corps (I swear I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just trying to be as frank as possible) you don't know how much for a college player who's practicing proper brass techniques for upwards to 4 hours a day that drum corps is a complete shock to the system, literally. I had to do so much maintenance with my playing when I got back 06 and 07, the last thing my playing (and professor :sshh: ) would have needed was for me to be playing on a crap bugle which doesn't even sound like a trumpet or even a brass instrument really for 3 months straight.

Besides, I've been told nothing but bad things about people who marched G bugles in my corps before they got Bbs, some of them are multiple I&E champions and #### good players (not in the drum corps context, I mean they're legit good players!) so I trust their opinion.

[mchromik]

The problem with G marching brass is the design. There's not much market incentive to come up with competing/pro designs. And some of the existing designs suck for some of the voices. Even though other voices in the same line are on par with some pro horns. Since 2000 only a handfull of corps have purchased new G brass(Troopers, Marines D&BC, Kilties). Assuming they all came from the same manufacturer, it'd only account for about 200 instruments over the past ten years. Which would be about 0.5% of Kanstuls production volume over the same time frame. There probably wouldn't have been that many sold if the drumcorps activity wasn't so rough on horns.

I wonder if some of the design improvements from the marching brass couldn't be easily applied to the older G bugle designs? Dynasty in particular has done a great deal of marching brass development since 2000. I am not familiar with the current Dynasty G bugle designs, but I would not be surprised if they haven't changed much since the intro of 3 valves in the early 90s. If not, then G bugles will not evolve much more, for so few are buying new ones, and they will keep those horns much longer then the average concert pitch line. The juniors are turning there brass over every other season or so now.

As Marybucs pointed out, there doesn't appear to be any technical reason that G horns couldn't still be manufactured as a special batch type product. Especially by a smaller brass specialist like Kanstul. The horns they did for the Marines are even two valvers. If that is the case then G horns will be around as long as someone has the $ to order them. But as the Neanderthals of the brass world, their future doesn't look very bright.

[Penn State]

I wonder if some of the design improvements from the marching brass couldn't be easily applied to the older G bugle designs? Dynasty in particular has done a great deal of marching brass development since 2000. I am not familiar with the current Dynasty G bugle designs, but I would not be surprised if they haven't changed much since the intro of 3 valves in the early 90s. If not, then G bugles will not evolve much more, for so few are buying new ones, and they will keep those horns much longer then the average concert pitch line. The juniors are turning there brass over every other season or so now.

As Marybucs pointed out, there doesn't appear to be any technical reason that G horns couldn't still be manufactured as a special batch type product. Especially by a smaller brass specialist like Kanstul. The horns they did for the Marines are even two valvers. If that is the case then G horns will be around as long as someone has the $ to order them. But as the Neanderthals of the brass world, their future doesn't look very bright.

A second question to ask, does the manufacture want to produce G 'bugles'? I'm guessing outside of DEG music and Kanstul the answer would be no. I would also assume DEG music wouldn't have a factory re-tool for one order of two valve bugles. I was told Kanstul shut down production for one week to retool for the Marine D&BC order.

[Penn State]

Well, from my perspective. If you had your choice of brand new horns from any decade for your dream set of bugles for your hornline. Would you choose currently produced models on every voice? From a single manufacturer? Or would you favor K-80 Euphs, Ultratone Baris, K-60 Frenchies, and whatever other models that are no longer being produced?

I'll agree that there's not really any complete duds of the existing selection for G bugles. But given a choice, there are a number of models I would rather not pay my money to acquire.

Bb/F full set (current production)

YAMAHA

G 'Bugle'

King G bugles on all voices except mellophone. I would want mellos to be in F, to take them out of the same octave as the sops.

My ideal:

Set of horns (Bb/F) designed by Vincent Bach.

Does anyone else feel a Bach (marching) mellophone/mellophonium, baritone, and tuba designs would still be considered top notch quality in today's market?